ATC User Fees

"Peter Duniho" wrote in
:

"Jose" wrote in message
. ..
Correct. And "effectively banned" is different from "banned".

How so? Have you actually looked at the definition of "effectively"?
All the word implies is that a ban is in place without it being overt.
A nominal ban would be an actual regulation that says "no GA aircraft
allowed". An "effective ban" is one that does the same thing, through
other means.

I think the OP was using "effectively banned" to mean "so dissuaided
that most spam cans avoid the airport". I find this usage to be
accurately descriptive and helps make his point.

He hasn't stated that was his usage. However, if it was, it's
contrary to the definition of "effectively".

I will agree that redefining after the fact the terms one uses helps
one make one's point. It's a common tactic for people who say one
thing, but either mean something else or find that what they
originally meant wasn't correct in the first place.

Your usage ("a price at which light GA aircraft would =never= use")
is another reasonable definition, and makes your (different) point.

My definition matches the actual definition of "effectively".


From the dictionary definition of "effectively", including the
dictionary's usage example:

"For all practical purposes; in effect: Though a few rebels still held
out, the fighting was effectively ended."


The definition does NOT equate "effectively" with "absolutely",
"totally", "completely", etc. A combination of landing & ramp fees will
effectively, but not totally, ban GA traffic.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

"Marty Shapiro" wrote in message
...
From the dictionary definition of "effectively", including the
dictionary's usage example:

"For all practical purposes; in effect: Though a few rebels still held
out, the fighting was effectively ended."

That definition isn't in my dictionary. Wonderful for you that it's in
yours.

However, even by that definition, light GA is not "effectively banned" from
large Class B airports. The fact that large Class B airports still have
significant light GA traffic is proof of that.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in
:

That definition isn't in my dictionary. Wonderful for you that
it's in yours.

Try here http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=effectively

--

"Peter Duniho" wrote in
:

"Marty Shapiro" wrote in message
...
From the dictionary definition of "effectively", including the
dictionary's usage example:

"For all practical purposes; in effect: Though a few rebels still
held
out, the fighting was effectively ended."

That definition isn't in my dictionary. Wonderful for you that it's
in yours.

However, even by that definition, light GA is not "effectively banned"
from large Class B airports. The fact that large Class B airports
still have significant light GA traffic is proof of that.

Pete



Perhaps if you didn't go around spending $100+ to park at a large
class B airport, you could afford a better dictionary.

For free, you can use dictionary.com.

Define light GA aircraft. When I was on the ramp at SFO, they told me
I was the only piston powered aircraft to land there that day.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

"Marty Shapiro" wrote in message
...
Define light GA aircraft. When I was on the ramp at SFO, they told me
I was the only piston powered aircraft to land there that day.

Hmmm...you were at SFO, in spite of the "effective ban"? Amazing.

Considering how light GA is supposed to be "effectively banned", we have a
surprising number of folks even in this small group of pilots who have flown
into large Class B airports.

As for the definition of "light GA aircraft", I'm speaking of pretty much
the same planes you probably would expect: six-seat and smaller piston
aircraft (singles and twins). Perhaps some of the smallest cabin-class
twins. Navajos, TBM700s, King Airs, and business jets need not apply.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in
:

"Marty Shapiro" wrote in message
...
Define light GA aircraft. When I was on the ramp at SFO, they
told me
I was the only piston powered aircraft to land there that day.

Hmmm...you were at SFO, in spite of the "effective ban"? Amazing.

The statement was that high fees "effectively ban". Since I knew in
advance that ALL fees would be waived, the issue of fees was completely
irrelevant. A fee of $0.00 nullifies both the "high" and "fees" in "high
fees".


Considering how light GA is supposed to be "effectively banned", we
have a surprising number of folks even in this small group of pilots
who have flown into large Class B airports.

For some reason, you have fixated on "effectively" equating to
"completely" or "totally" despite being referred to a perfectly valid
dictionary definition (with usage example) which says otherwise. You've
also managed to drop the "high fees". Fees are a deterrent to landing at
an airport. The higher the fees, the more of a deterrent they are. If you
make them high enough, you effectively (but not totally) ban light GA
aircraft unless no viable alternative exists.

Not all large class B airports have landing fees. Of the class B
airports with landing fees that I am aware of, SFO is the most expensive,
(excluding surcharges). I even posted the fact that the NYC class B
airports (JFK, LGA, & EWR) have a $25 landing fee with a $100 surcharge for
landing or takeoff operations during certain hours. LAX and LAS have no
landing fee. (All fee examples refer to light GA aircraft.) Unless you are
planning to only do a touch-and-go the ramp fee has be figured in when
determining if the cost of landing is a deterrent at any airport, not just
a class B airport.

Where the total fees are more reasonable, regardless of class of
airport, you will find more GA aircraft. Given reasonable alternatives, GA
aircraft will go to the airport with the lower fees.

As I previously stated, LAS is a large class B airport with no landing
fee. 13 years ago, other than fuel, the fees at LAS were reasonable.
Parking was free for the first 6 or 8 hours and the overnight fee, which I
don't recall exactly, was also quite reasonable. Back then, there were many
light GA aircraft on the LAS ramp. Last July, the ramp fee at LAS was $50
daily, no "grace" period. The fee was for one night was waived with a
minimum fuel purchase. However, VGT, a class D only 8.2 NM north, was $5
per night (no waiver for fuel purchase) and $1.50 per gallon less for
100LL. Guess which transient ramp was chock full of light GA aircraft and
which one had very few.


As for the definition of "light GA aircraft", I'm speaking of pretty
much the same planes you probably would expect: six-seat and smaller
piston aircraft (singles and twins). Perhaps some of the smallest
cabin-class twins. Navajos, TBM700s, King Airs, and business jets
need not apply.

Pete

Using your definition of a light GA aircraft, which I agree with,
counting me there was exactly one which landed at SFO on the day I was
there. (I left around 6:30 PM, so it is possible one did arrive
afterwards.) The closest I saw to a light GA aircraft at SFO that day was
a Piper Malibu Mirage.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

("Marty Shapiro" wrote)
Define light GA aircraft. When I was on the ramp at SFO, they told me I
was the only piston powered aircraft to land there that day.


Are they pistonphobic out there at SFO?

And what about the whole MoGas conversion community - I hope they too are
welcome by an open FBO at SFO? Personally, I think AvGas planes come from
the factory that way, but what do I know?

Then there's those new diesel twins - with possible fuel identity issues...


Montblack

"Marty Shapiro" wrote in message
...
Hmmm...you were at SFO, in spite of the "effective ban"? Amazing.

The statement was that high fees "effectively ban". Since I knew in
advance that ALL fees would be waived, the issue of fees was completely
irrelevant. A fee of $0.00 nullifies both the "high" and "fees" in "high
fees".

Okay, I failed to connect those two. Sorry.

Considering how light GA is supposed to be "effectively banned", we
have a surprising number of folks even in this small group of pilots
who have flown into large Class B airports.

For some reason, you have fixated on "effectively" equating to
"completely" or "totally" despite being referred to a perfectly valid
dictionary definition (with usage example) which says otherwise. You've
also managed to drop the "high fees".

The usage example provided here doesn't come close to justifying the
statement as applied to large Class B airports. As far as dropping the
"high fees" statement, I'm not really sure what you're talking about. The
original statement made a claim only with respect to "landing fees", and
while I have not made a conscious effect to distinguish between landing fees
and other fees, accusing me of some sort of underhanded position shifting
makes no sense whatsoever.

Fees are a deterrent to landing at
an airport. The higher the fees, the more of a deterrent they are. If
you
make them high enough, you effectively (but not totally) ban light GA
aircraft unless no viable alternative exists.

You would see fewer light GA aircraft at large Class B airports, even if the
fees were zero.

Furthermore, you (and the others) insist that "effectively" doesn't mean
"actually", but you apparently refuse to explain just how many planes can be
permitted at an airport before there's no "effective ban". You've got a
great slippery-slope argument going, but when you look at small airports
with fees that also discourage light GA aircraft (or any other, for that
matter), you've either got to claim light GA aircraft are "effectively
banned" there (which would obviously make no sense), or explain what makes
those airports different from the others where light GA aircraft are
"effectively banned" (ie, what sort of light GA traffic does an airport need
to see before one doesn't consider it "effectively banned").

If you want to continue talking about this "effective ban", your first step
is to define what that means. Clearly light GA aircraft are using the
largest Class B airports in the US, so they clearly are not really banned.
Since you feel you can equivocate on the definition of "effective", you need
to explain just where you're going to draw the line. Otherwise, the
definition you're using can be taken to ridiculous limits.

Once you've defined your "effective ban", then you need to illustrate that
by showing exactly how many light GA aircraft are using the largest Class B
airports, and that that number is dramatically different from the number
that would be using those airports if there were not any fees (comparing a
large Class B airport to even a local reliever, never mind a small GA-only
airport, won't prove anything).

Only one person so far has even pretended to provide actual data supporting
his thesis, and the data turned out to be bogus. It's hardly a convincing
way to demonstrate one's point. I remain unconvinced that light GA aircraft
are "effectively banned" from any airport, due to landing fees or otherwise.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in
:

"Marty Shapiro" wrote in message
...
Hmmm...you were at SFO, in spite of the "effective ban"? Amazing.

The statement was that high fees "effectively ban". Since I knew
in
advance that ALL fees would be waived, the issue of fees was
completely irrelevant. A fee of $0.00 nullifies both the "high" and
"fees" in "high fees".

Okay, I failed to connect those two. Sorry.

Considering how light GA is supposed to be "effectively banned", we
have a surprising number of folks even in this small group of pilots
who have flown into large Class B airports.

For some reason, you have fixated on "effectively" equating to
"completely" or "totally" despite being referred to a perfectly valid
dictionary definition (with usage example) which says otherwise.
You've also managed to drop the "high fees".

The usage example provided here doesn't come close to justifying the
statement as applied to large Class B airports. As far as dropping
the "high fees" statement, I'm not really sure what you're talking
about. The original statement made a claim only with respect to
"landing fees", and while I have not made a conscious effect to
distinguish between landing fees and other fees, accusing me of some
sort of underhanded position shifting makes no sense whatsoever.

Please re-read what you stated and which I quoted in my reply. When
you referred to the surprising number of pilots in this group who have
flown into class B airports, you left out the qualifier "high fee". If a
surprising number of pilots in this group have flown a light GA aircraft
into a high fee class B, and they had to pay the fee, that would support
your argument. Just flying into a class B does not, as there are class B
airports with no fees.


Fees are a deterrent to landing at
an airport. The higher the fees, the more of a deterrent they are.
If you
make them high enough, you effectively (but not totally) ban light GA
aircraft unless no viable alternative exists.

You would see fewer light GA aircraft at large Class B airports, even
if the fees were zero.

Really? This will really surprise at least two Class B with over 100
single engine aircraft based there. Of course, these class B do NOT charge
a landing fee to light GA aircraft.

Lets take a look at data from AirNav for 2 high fee and 2 zero fee
class B airport:

High fee 1:

Aircraft based on the field: 18
Single engine airplanes: 1
Multi engine airplanes: 3
Jet airplanes: 12
Helicopters: 2

Aircraft operations: avg 965/day
70% commercial
25% air taxi
5% transient general aviation
1% military

High fee 2: (AirNav shows no aircraft based here)

Aircraft operations: avg 760/day
87% air carriers
11% commuters
2% transient general aviation
1% military

No fee 1:

Aircraft based on the field: 263
Single engine airplanes: 115
Multi engine airplanes: 55
Jet airplanes: 45
Helicopters: 16
Military aircraft: 32

Aircraft operations: avg 886/day
55% commercial
24% transient general aviation
15% air taxi
5% military
2% local general aviation

No fee 2:

Aircraft based on the field: 237
Single engine airplanes: 118
Multi engine airplanes: 39
Jet airplanes: 55
Helicopters: 15
Military aircraft: 10

Aircraft operations: avg 1802/day
72% commercial
12% air taxi
11% transient general aviation
4% local general aviation
1% military


If a location is served by both a class B airport and a class C, D, or
G reliever airport, and assuming that fees are and location access are
comparable between the class B and the reliever airport, I suspect most
light GA aircraft pilots would not go to the class B. But, if my
experience as a pilot who learned an flew for many years out of
what is now a class C airport (it was an ARSA airport when I was a student)
comparing notes with pilots who learned at class G airports is typical, I
suspect there is a factor of unfamiliarity with big airports and the co-
requisite radio communications biasing this decision.

Furthermore, you (and the others) insist that "effectively" doesn't
mean "actually", but you apparently refuse to explain just how many
planes can be permitted at an airport before there's no "effective
ban". You've got a great slippery-slope argument going, but when you
look at small airports with fees that also discourage light GA
aircraft (or any other, for that matter), you've either got to claim
light GA aircraft are "effectively banned" there (which would
obviously make no sense), or explain what makes those airports
different from the others where light GA aircraft are "effectively
banned" (ie, what sort of light GA traffic does an airport need to see
before one doesn't consider it "effectively banned").

If you want to continue talking about this "effective ban", your first
step is to define what that means. Clearly light GA aircraft are
using the largest Class B airports in the US, so they clearly are not
really banned. Since you feel you can equivocate on the definition of
"effective", you need to explain just where you're going to draw the
line. Otherwise, the definition you're using can be taken to
ridiculous limits.

If the airport is public use, it can not legally ban light GA
aircraft. All it can do is highly discourage them from landing. One
method of discouraging light GA aircraft from landing is to impose a high
fee. However, if they make the fee prohibitive enough to achieve a
complete ban (which is probably impossible as there is always some one with
deep enough pockets who could pay it) they would then run afoul of the FAA.
One airport authority tried this at their class B and got slammed down by
the FAA.

If you want a definition, I'll give you one. If there are viable
reliever airport(s) at a location with a class B airport, a fee which
effectively bans light GA aircraft at the class B is one where 98% of the
transient light GA aircraft operations at that location take place at the
reliever airport(s).


Once you've defined your "effective ban", then you need to illustrate
that by showing exactly how many light GA aircraft are using the
largest Class B airports, and that that number is dramatically
different from the number that would be using those airports if there
were not any fees (comparing a large Class B airport to even a local
reliever, never mind a small GA-only airport, won't prove anything).

See the above data from AirNav contrasting high fee class B with no
fee class B.


Only one person so far has even pretended to provide actual data
supporting his thesis, and the data turned out to be bogus. It's
hardly a convincing way to demonstrate one's point. I remain
unconvinced that light GA aircraft are "effectively banned" from any
airport, due to landing fees or otherwise.

Pete






--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

"Montblack" wrote in
:

("Marty Shapiro" wrote)
Define light GA aircraft. When I was on the ramp at SFO, they told
me I was the only piston powered aircraft to land there that day.


Are they pistonphobic out there at SFO?

And what about the whole MoGas conversion community - I hope they too
are welcome by an open FBO at SFO? Personally, I think AvGas planes
come from the factory that way, but what do I know?

Then there's those new diesel twins - with possible fuel identity
issues...


Montblack



Pistonphobic? I like that!!!

I think the fees at SFO do qualify the airport as pistonphobic. The
ones who seem to be willing to pay them all fly turbo-props or jets. The
airport & FBO will welcome any aircraft bringing them $$$$$!

Should we also count major airports such at LAX which only sell Jet-A
as pistonphobic? I don't think the diesel twins are for sale in the U.S.
yet, nor do I know the status of their certification to burn Jet-A.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)