Spin Training

Hello. I'm finishing up my CFI training. My CFI and I went up in a 172
(certified for spins) and tried to get the plane to spin for my spin
training. The airplane was loaded properly in the utility category. We
could not get the airplane to enter a fully developed spin. It would
enter the incipient stage just fine, but would not remain in the spin
for even one complete rotation. My CFI is very experienced, and has
spun this airplane numerous times before with other students. Part of
the problem may be that I weigh about 300 lbs (and am 6'6 tall), so we
are rather forward in the CG department.

What exactly are the definitions of 'spin training' that the FAA
requires for CFI logbook endorsement? I am having trouble locating
specific definitions. Does entry into and recovery from an incipient
spin count? Does it need to be a fully developed spin (with a minimum
number of turns). While I would truly love to experience some
fully-developed spins, I *did* recover correctly from the incipient
ones, both left and right. We have no other planes available that are
certified for spins, and the nearest place I can get dedicated
aerobatic training is quite a few hours away, and rather difficult to
schedule. We cannot fit into a 152 without being significantly over
the max gross weight.

While I want to do this right, I don't want to put my training (I am
almost ready for the checkride) on hiatus for several months while I
find a way to coordinate schedules and travel to the place with the
Citabria.

Any ideas, comments or suggestions?

Thanks,

Cap

I cannot tell you what the FAA requirements are, but I will tell you
that with two full size adults in the airplane, you cannot have full
fuel onboard a Citabria/Decathlon and be with in the legal CG.
Make certain you play with the W&B before you fly.

I know when I did my spin training, I would have to enter the spin
pretty aggresively, especially if you wanted to a right spin. I would
have to do more than a typical 1g stall, by using additional airspeed
and momentum to pull the nose up higher to induce a stall. At the exact
moment of stall I would stomp on the rudder. Sins to the left was
easier then the spins to the right. Spins to the right the plane would
always wanted to pop out and you really have to old the plane in the
spin.


Captain Wubba wrote:
Hello. I'm finishing up my CFI training. My CFI and I went up in a 172
(certified for spins) and tried to get the plane to spin for my spin
training. The airplane was loaded properly in the utility category. We
could not get the airplane to enter a fully developed spin. It would
enter the incipient stage just fine, but would not remain in the spin
for even one complete rotation. My CFI is very experienced, and has
spun this airplane numerous times before with other students. Part of
the problem may be that I weigh about 300 lbs (and am 6'6 tall), so we
are rather forward in the CG department.

What exactly are the definitions of 'spin training' that the FAA
requires for CFI logbook endorsement? I am having trouble locating
specific definitions. Does entry into and recovery from an incipient
spin count? Does it need to be a fully developed spin (with a minimum
number of turns). While I would truly love to experience some
fully-developed spins, I *did* recover correctly from the incipient
ones, both left and right. We have no other planes available that are
certified for spins, and the nearest place I can get dedicated
aerobatic training is quite a few hours away, and rather difficult to
schedule. We cannot fit into a 152 without being significantly over
the max gross weight.

While I want to do this right, I don't want to put my training (I am
almost ready for the checkride) on hiatus for several months while I
find a way to coordinate schedules and travel to the place with the
Citabria.

Any ideas, comments or suggestions?

Thanks,

Cap

Hi Cap

I am just a PPASEL, but I requested some spin training from my CFI after
I got my PPL. Same plane- C172. Two up front and half full tanks per the
manual. I only weigh 130 or so.

I also found that the aircraft would not fully develop a spin. The only way
I
could get even an incipient spin was full power and a skid to the left (full
left
aileron and rudder) at an extreme nose up attitude... Thirty or forty
degrees.

Within one turn an extreme spiral dive would begin if I held the contols
full left.
This in itself was a little scary as VNE was only a few seconds away.

I can't say the experience really prepared me for spin recovery procedures
since
I was just doing wing drops and spiral dives that I just flew out of in a
normal
manner.

I do not consider that the C172 is virtually spinproof although it seemed
that way
at the time. I'll bet with a more aft (but in range) CG it would spin real
good...
but I'm not gonna try it of course.

--
Leslie M. Watts
L M Watts Furniture
Tiger, Georgia USA
http://www.alltel.net/~leswatts/wattsfurniturewp.html
Engineering page:
http://www.alltel.net/~leswatts/shop.html
Surplus CNC for sale:
http://www.alltel.net/~leswatts/forsale.html
"Captain Wubba" wrote in message
om...
Hello. I'm finishing up my CFI training. My CFI and I went up in a 172
(certified for spins) and tried to get the plane to spin for my spin
training. The airplane was loaded properly in the utility category. We
could not get the airplane to enter a fully developed spin. It would
enter the incipient stage just fine, but would not remain in the spin
for even one complete rotation. My CFI is very experienced, and has
spun this airplane numerous times before with other students. Part of
the problem may be that I weigh about 300 lbs (and am 6'6 tall), so we
are rather forward in the CG department.

What exactly are the definitions of 'spin training' that the FAA
requires for CFI logbook endorsement? I am having trouble locating
specific definitions. Does entry into and recovery from an incipient
spin count? Does it need to be a fully developed spin (with a minimum
number of turns). While I would truly love to experience some
fully-developed spins, I *did* recover correctly from the incipient
ones, both left and right. We have no other planes available that are
certified for spins, and the nearest place I can get dedicated
aerobatic training is quite a few hours away, and rather difficult to
schedule. We cannot fit into a 152 without being significantly over
the max gross weight.

While I want to do this right, I don't want to put my training (I am
almost ready for the checkride) on hiatus for several months while I
find a way to coordinate schedules and travel to the place with the
Citabria.

Any ideas, comments or suggestions?

Thanks,

Cap

My question is:

Are you holding FULL aft elevator, FULL left or right rudder and
neutral ailerons?

I don't know the regs. But frankly, I think a flight instructor who's
not current on spins isn't qualified to instruct, whether the regs
require it or not.

Here in Switzerland, flight instructors are required to hold a full
aerobatic rating before they can apply for the instructor rating, and
I've always thought this was reasonable. At least it was so before we
joined JAR, it may have changed now.

BTW: I always read the term CFI (certificated flight instructor). This
rises the question: Is there such a thing as an uncertificated flight
instructor?

Stefan

It takes some effort to spin a 172, especially with two people on board.
If you keep some power in while entering the spin, it will spin nicely.
The more power you add, the more it spins.





(Captain Wubba) wrote in
om:

Hello. I'm finishing up my CFI training. My CFI and I went up in a 172
(certified for spins) and tried to get the plane to spin for my spin
training. The airplane was loaded properly in the utility category. We
could not get the airplane to enter a fully developed spin. It would
enter the incipient stage just fine, but would not remain in the spin
for even one complete rotation. My CFI is very experienced, and has
spun this airplane numerous times before with other students. Part of
the problem may be that I weigh about 300 lbs (and am 6'6 tall), so we
are rather forward in the CG department.

What exactly are the definitions of 'spin training' that the FAA
requires for CFI logbook endorsement? I am having trouble locating
specific definitions. Does entry into and recovery from an incipient
spin count? Does it need to be a fully developed spin (with a minimum
number of turns). While I would truly love to experience some
fully-developed spins, I *did* recover correctly from the incipient
ones, both left and right. We have no other planes available that are
certified for spins, and the nearest place I can get dedicated
aerobatic training is quite a few hours away, and rather difficult to
schedule. We cannot fit into a 152 without being significantly over
the max gross weight.

While I want to do this right, I don't want to put my training (I am
almost ready for the checkride) on hiatus for several months while I
find a way to coordinate schedules and travel to the place with the
Citabria.

Any ideas, comments or suggestions?

Thanks,

Cap

From: EDR
Date: 4/8/2004 3:53 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

My question is:

Are you holding FULL aft elevator, FULL left or right rudder and
neutral ailerons?

If that does not get it how about holding some out of turn aileron? Hey maybe
we can get a flat spin if we try hard enough. Mac

Most of the time when people are having trouble with entering a spin they
are not holding the yoke far enough back.

On 8 Apr 2004 12:47:37 -0700, (Captain Wubba)
wrote:

While I would truly love to experience some
fully-developed spins

There is wonderful spin training at Chandler AZ.
www.warbirdforum.com/chandler.htm and no doubt other places.

I enjoyed the heck out of it.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

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