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Borgelt Dynamis variometer



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 25th 19, 12:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Borgelt Dynamis variometer

Having studied both videos very closely several times I disagree that the Dynamis vario simply shows evidence of a longer integration time - quite the reverse, I see a faster and much more steady response. Watching the ASIs, altimeters and pitch changes at the same time and trying vicariously to "feel" the air suggests to me that the Dynamis Vario is better at showing real lift.

It will be great to have a third party expert flight report eventually. Until then I would tend to think that if MB puts his reputation on the line and says it is a significant advance then it most probably is. I think that it is unlikely that, after decades of development, and having written long ago that time filtering is no help in removing gust induced TE vario errors, he would then offer a longer integration time as a solution.
  #22  
Old March 25th 19, 03:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike the Strike
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Default Borgelt Dynamis variometer

Without any technical insight into the product, I am prepared to say that there is a good chance that Mike has done what he says. We corresponded a couple of decades ago about this problem, since we experience sometimes severe gust/shear problems with our strong Arizona thermals. New sensors enable several possible mechanisms to compensate for this problem. Mike has had at least twenty years to figure it out and has a long history of designing good varios.

Mike
  #23  
Old March 25th 19, 03:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Default Borgelt Dynamis variometer

On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 4:50:50 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Having studied both videos very closely several times I disagree that the Dynamis vario simply shows evidence of a longer integration time - quite the reverse, I see a faster and much more steady response. Watching the ASIs, altimeters and pitch changes at the same time and trying vicariously to "feel" the air suggests to me that the Dynamis Vario is better at showing real lift.

It will be great to have a third party expert flight report eventually. Until then I would tend to think that if MB puts his reputation on the line and says it is a significant advance then it most probably is. I think that it is unlikely that, after decades of development, and having written long ago that time filtering is no help in removing gust induced TE vario errors, he would then offer a longer integration time as a solution.


Just wondering how this new vario compares to Air-Avionics butterfly (air-glide)?
  #24  
Old March 25th 19, 05:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Borgelt Dynamis variometer

On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 3:03:22 PM UTC+1, Mike the Strike wrote:
Without any technical insight into the product, I am prepared to say that there is a good chance that Mike has done what he says. We corresponded a couple of decades ago about this problem, since we experience sometimes severe gust/shear problems with our strong Arizona thermals. New sensors enable several possible mechanisms to compensate for this problem. Mike has had at least twenty years to figure it out and has a long history of designing good varios.

Mike


With all respect, I am sure that there has been a lot of time and effort put into this, but that does not per definition means that it is a good product.

I'd really like to know what sensors are involved, the basic functions should be explained. I don't buy this "i am not gonna tell you" approach.

As an engineer, I like to use facts, not "good chance" or just strong belief. Lets not make this one about religion.

Especially when it is stated Quote: "The most significant advance in sailplane instruments since the invention of Total Energy and maybe the variometer itself".

  #25  
Old March 25th 19, 06:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Borgelt Dynamis variometer

On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 5:56:31 AM UTC+1, Mike Borgelt wrote:
Well we finally got all the algorithms right and the plus and minus signs in the right places. It took a lot longer than we thought until we made a testing breakthrough. One day the story will get told.

Our beta testers report they are very happy and could not fault it.
Search Youtube for Borgelt Instruments for the 20 minute video of Dynamis performing in a Quintus alongside an LX 9000 and vario.

Pilot flew 700km that day. Fast, smooth response and no sensitivity to horizontal gusts or the "g" effects of the mounting of the TE probe vs the variometer. That is, the Dynamis variometer only shows the changes to the vertical air motion.

The horizontal guts effect is proportional to the SQUARE of the TAS and this has become a huge problem with modern, high wing loading gliders cruising at speeds of 100 to 110 knots IAS at altitude where the TAS can be over 140 knots. Very small horizontal gradients in the air cause large signals on Total Energy variometers
(a one knot per 50 meters gradient will cause a 5 knot signal at 100 KTAS and 10 knots at 140 KTAS).

The LX vario was set to 1.5 seconds (fast) time constant. Note there is nothing "wrong" with the LX vario it is just subject to all the known limitations of ALL previous Total Energy variometers.

Any questions, please use the email address on the Borgelt Instruments website, NOT the gmail one as it NEVER gets checked.

Please do not expect to get a description of how it works, just note from the video that it does. It has been a long project dating back to before Borgelt Instruments was formed in 1978.

After many ideas, blind alleys, false starts and miss steps, most of which did not survive initial analysis, although some made it to flight test, serious development of the final instrument was started in early 2013 after confirmation of sensor performance and has just been completed.

We anticipate a couple more interesting display developments as we now have complete 3D knowledge of air motion, vertical as well as vector wind (speed and direction.

I'll try to put together a second video in the next few days from the last half of the 1.5 hours of video we got on 9th February 2019. This was my first video editing effort.

Mike Borgelt


Really inspiring that someone puts time into glider research and development. I am always reading and following these projects with great interest.

After reading articles on borgeltinstruments.com about horisontal gusts, I came to think about Albatrosses and their ability to use horisontal gradients in wind speed to soar for miles without flapping the wings.

If a crusing glider flies into an increasing headwind gradient, then should should the increased airflow over the wings produce more lift, and the glider should start to gain height(Elevator and GS constant), and a mechanical variometer (i.e. Winter) will indicate this as lift.

A variometer that does not react to horizontal wind gradients would indicate zero lift in this scenario - how is this a good thing?

Are you supposed to use two variometers, one "Dynamis" and one "ordinary" (LxNav), and always compare the two, to see if it really is vertical thermal?

Regards,


  #26  
Old March 25th 19, 07:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 5
Default Borgelt Dynamis variometer

On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 1:08:29 AM UTC+1, Charlie Quebec wrote:
Yeh why not give away the fruits of many years of research, so others can copy it, sounds like a great idea to promote your business.


Ever heard of a concept called "Patent"?
  #27  
Old March 25th 19, 08:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike C
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Posts: 337
Default Borgelt Dynamis variometer

On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 11:41:09 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 5:56:31 AM UTC+1, Mike Borgelt wrote:
Well we finally got all the algorithms right and the plus and minus signs in the right places. It took a lot longer than we thought until we made a testing breakthrough. One day the story will get told.

Our beta testers report they are very happy and could not fault it.
Search Youtube for Borgelt Instruments for the 20 minute video of Dynamis performing in a Quintus alongside an LX 9000 and vario.

Pilot flew 700km that day. Fast, smooth response and no sensitivity to horizontal gusts or the "g" effects of the mounting of the TE probe vs the variometer. That is, the Dynamis variometer only shows the changes to the vertical air motion.

The horizontal guts effect is proportional to the SQUARE of the TAS and this has become a huge problem with modern, high wing loading gliders cruising at speeds of 100 to 110 knots IAS at altitude where the TAS can be over 140 knots. Very small horizontal gradients in the air cause large signals on Total Energy variometers
(a one knot per 50 meters gradient will cause a 5 knot signal at 100 KTAS and 10 knots at 140 KTAS).

The LX vario was set to 1.5 seconds (fast) time constant. Note there is nothing "wrong" with the LX vario it is just subject to all the known limitations of ALL previous Total Energy variometers.

Any questions, please use the email address on the Borgelt Instruments website, NOT the gmail one as it NEVER gets checked.

Please do not expect to get a description of how it works, just note from the video that it does. It has been a long project dating back to before Borgelt Instruments was formed in 1978.

After many ideas, blind alleys, false starts and miss steps, most of which did not survive initial analysis, although some made it to flight test, serious development of the final instrument was started in early 2013 after confirmation of sensor performance and has just been completed.

We anticipate a couple more interesting display developments as we now have complete 3D knowledge of air motion, vertical as well as vector wind (speed and direction.

I'll try to put together a second video in the next few days from the last half of the 1.5 hours of video we got on 9th February 2019. This was my first video editing effort.

Mike Borgelt


Really inspiring that someone puts time into glider research and development. I am always reading and following these projects with great interest.

After reading articles on borgeltinstruments.com about horisontal gusts, I came to think about Albatrosses and their ability to use horisontal gradients in wind speed to soar for miles without flapping the wings.

If a crusing glider flies into an increasing headwind gradient, then should should the increased airflow over the wings produce more lift, and the glider should start to gain height(Elevator and GS constant), and a mechanical variometer (i.e. Winter) will indicate this as lift.

A variometer that does not react to horizontal wind gradients would indicate zero lift in this scenario - how is this a good thing?

Are you supposed to use two variometers, one "Dynamis" and one "ordinary" (LxNav), and always compare the two, to see if it really is vertical thermal?

Regards


,

"A variometer that does not react to horizontal wind gradients would indicate zero lift in this scenario - how is this a good thing?"


You end up not circling in sink.
  #28  
Old March 25th 19, 10:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 5
Default Borgelt Dynamis variometer

On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 8:52:02 PM UTC+1, Mike C wrote:
On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 11:41:09 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 5:56:31 AM UTC+1, Mike Borgelt wrote:
Well we finally got all the algorithms right and the plus and minus signs in the right places. It took a lot longer than we thought until we made a testing breakthrough. One day the story will get told.

Our beta testers report they are very happy and could not fault it.
Search Youtube for Borgelt Instruments for the 20 minute video of Dynamis performing in a Quintus alongside an LX 9000 and vario.

Pilot flew 700km that day. Fast, smooth response and no sensitivity to horizontal gusts or the "g" effects of the mounting of the TE probe vs the variometer. That is, the Dynamis variometer only shows the changes to the vertical air motion.

The horizontal guts effect is proportional to the SQUARE of the TAS and this has become a huge problem with modern, high wing loading gliders cruising at speeds of 100 to 110 knots IAS at altitude where the TAS can be over 140 knots. Very small horizontal gradients in the air cause large signals on Total Energy variometers
(a one knot per 50 meters gradient will cause a 5 knot signal at 100 KTAS and 10 knots at 140 KTAS).

The LX vario was set to 1.5 seconds (fast) time constant. Note there is nothing "wrong" with the LX vario it is just subject to all the known limitations of ALL previous Total Energy variometers.

Any questions, please use the email address on the Borgelt Instruments website, NOT the gmail one as it NEVER gets checked.

Please do not expect to get a description of how it works, just note from the video that it does. It has been a long project dating back to before Borgelt Instruments was formed in 1978.

After many ideas, blind alleys, false starts and miss steps, most of which did not survive initial analysis, although some made it to flight test, serious development of the final instrument was started in early 2013 after confirmation of sensor performance and has just been completed.

We anticipate a couple more interesting display developments as we now have complete 3D knowledge of air motion, vertical as well as vector wind (speed and direction.

I'll try to put together a second video in the next few days from the last half of the 1.5 hours of video we got on 9th February 2019. This was my first video editing effort.

Mike Borgelt


Really inspiring that someone puts time into glider research and development. I am always reading and following these projects with great interest..

After reading articles on borgeltinstruments.com about horisontal gusts, I came to think about Albatrosses and their ability to use horisontal gradients in wind speed to soar for miles without flapping the wings.

If a crusing glider flies into an increasing headwind gradient, then should should the increased airflow over the wings produce more lift, and the glider should start to gain height(Elevator and GS constant), and a mechanical variometer (i.e. Winter) will indicate this as lift.

A variometer that does not react to horizontal wind gradients would indicate zero lift in this scenario - how is this a good thing?

Are you supposed to use two variometers, one "Dynamis" and one "ordinary" (LxNav), and always compare the two, to see if it really is vertical thermal?

Regards


,

"A variometer that does not react to horizontal wind gradients would indicate zero lift in this scenario - how is this a good thing?"


You end up not circling in sink.


Yes, but I would also end up crusing in tailwind gradients, with a vario saying zero sink.
  #29  
Old March 26th 19, 07:19 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike C
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Posts: 337
Default Borgelt Dynamis variometer

On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 3:34:18 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 8:52:02 PM UTC+1, Mike C wrote:
On Monday, March 25, 2019 at 11:41:09 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 5:56:31 AM UTC+1, Mike Borgelt wrote:
Well we finally got all the algorithms right and the plus and minus signs in the right places. It took a lot longer than we thought until we made a testing breakthrough. One day the story will get told.

Our beta testers report they are very happy and could not fault it.
Search Youtube for Borgelt Instruments for the 20 minute video of Dynamis performing in a Quintus alongside an LX 9000 and vario.

Pilot flew 700km that day. Fast, smooth response and no sensitivity to horizontal gusts or the "g" effects of the mounting of the TE probe vs the variometer. That is, the Dynamis variometer only shows the changes to the vertical air motion.

The horizontal guts effect is proportional to the SQUARE of the TAS and this has become a huge problem with modern, high wing loading gliders cruising at speeds of 100 to 110 knots IAS at altitude where the TAS can be over 140 knots. Very small horizontal gradients in the air cause large signals on Total Energy variometers
(a one knot per 50 meters gradient will cause a 5 knot signal at 100 KTAS and 10 knots at 140 KTAS).

The LX vario was set to 1.5 seconds (fast) time constant. Note there is nothing "wrong" with the LX vario it is just subject to all the known limitations of ALL previous Total Energy variometers.

Any questions, please use the email address on the Borgelt Instruments website, NOT the gmail one as it NEVER gets checked.

Please do not expect to get a description of how it works, just note from the video that it does. It has been a long project dating back to before Borgelt Instruments was formed in 1978.

After many ideas, blind alleys, false starts and miss steps, most of which did not survive initial analysis, although some made it to flight test, serious development of the final instrument was started in early 2013 after confirmation of sensor performance and has just been completed.

We anticipate a couple more interesting display developments as we now have complete 3D knowledge of air motion, vertical as well as vector wind (speed and direction.

I'll try to put together a second video in the next few days from the last half of the 1.5 hours of video we got on 9th February 2019. This was my first video editing effort.

Mike Borgelt

Really inspiring that someone puts time into glider research and development. I am always reading and following these projects with great interest.

After reading articles on borgeltinstruments.com about horisontal gusts, I came to think about Albatrosses and their ability to use horisontal gradients in wind speed to soar for miles without flapping the wings.

If a crusing glider flies into an increasing headwind gradient, then should should the increased airflow over the wings produce more lift, and the glider should start to gain height(Elevator and GS constant), and a mechanical variometer (i.e. Winter) will indicate this as lift.

A variometer that does not react to horizontal wind gradients would indicate zero lift in this scenario - how is this a good thing?

Are you supposed to use two variometers, one "Dynamis" and one "ordinary" (LxNav), and always compare the two, to see if it really is vertical thermal?

Regards


,

"A variometer that does not react to horizontal wind gradients would indicate zero lift in this scenario - how is this a good thing?"


You end up not circling in sink.


Yes, but I would also end up cruising in tailwind gradients, with a vario saying zero sink.


Well, I do not mind you circling in sink, while I cruise through it ;^). Practically, although I am just barely an average pilot, a good TE vario while using the "seat of my pants" logarithm solved most of my problems with horizontal gusts.

Mike
  #30  
Old March 26th 19, 08:15 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Posts: 668
Default Borgelt Dynamis variometer

Variometer signal derived from inertial platform is game-changer, especially with modern gliders that regularly cruise at very high speeds. It is simply amazing to see Air GlideS blue netto-ball steadily pointing 2 m/s thermal while blazing trough it at 180 km/h and traditional variometers jumping like crazy. Nice to see at least some other manufacturer finally getting there.
 




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