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high tow vs low tow



 
 
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  #21  
Old February 25th 19, 10:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Cumungus
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Posts: 5
Default high tow vs low tow

On Sunday, February 24, 2019 at 7:27:25 PM UTC-8, Steve Koerner wrote:
As a US pilot, I've flown low tow a few times but mostly just high tow as that is the convention here. I'm wondering what all of the trade-offs are by the two methods? Might it be time to reconsider this?

As pointed out on another thread, low tow would seem to be safer against the problem of glider kiting up to overpower the tugs up elevator. I'm wondering if it's ever possible for a low tow glider to go too low and overpower the tugs down elevator?

Also, how does low tow compare in the other common dangerous towing situation wherein the tug flys too slow for a highly ballasted glider? My own experience with a seriously too slow tug is that I end up falling to low tow whether I like it or not.

Has anyone done a lot of tows both ways and have reasons as to which way is better?


Steve.

First reading this post brought back memories of the R11 Truckee contest in 2015.
If I remember correctly, you struggled tremendously to take off each day.
It is understood that R11 was hosted at an advanced site, though even in a fully loaded racing glider, it does not require superhuman skills to get off the ground and tow safely.
Note also that ground looping half way down the runway is not the fault of the wing runner...
Further reports from towpilots indicated that they could rarely see you in their rearview mirrors. In fact, there were several occasions where you were almost released by the towplane.

My best advice is to consider practicing normal takeoff and tow, where you keep the towplane's wheels on the horizon and the rope tight with basic techniques.
Intentional high tow and low tow in heavy, high performance gliders on rough days make things scary for the towpilot and their friends and family.
It is important to be able to recover from unintentional position upset, but there's no reason to intentionally upset your position.
Please, do us all a favor and stay in the standard tow position.

P.S. I hope to never have to see your gear doors up close again...
  #22  
Old February 26th 19, 05:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Steve Koerner
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Posts: 430
Default high tow vs low tow

On Monday, February 25, 2019 at 2:28:18 PM UTC-7, Cumungus wrote:
On Sunday, February 24, 2019 at 7:27:25 PM UTC-8, Steve Koerner wrote:
As a US pilot, I've flown low tow a few times but mostly just high tow as that is the convention here. I'm wondering what all of the trade-offs are by the two methods? Might it be time to reconsider this?

As pointed out on another thread, low tow would seem to be safer against the problem of glider kiting up to overpower the tugs up elevator. I'm wondering if it's ever possible for a low tow glider to go too low and overpower the tugs down elevator?

Also, how does low tow compare in the other common dangerous towing situation wherein the tug flys too slow for a highly ballasted glider? My own experience with a seriously too slow tug is that I end up falling to low tow whether I like it or not.

Has anyone done a lot of tows both ways and have reasons as to which way is better?


Steve.

First reading this post brought back memories of the R11 Truckee contest in 2015.
If I remember correctly, you struggled tremendously to take off each day.
It is understood that R11 was hosted at an advanced site, though even in a fully loaded racing glider, it does not require superhuman skills to get off the ground and tow safely.
Note also that ground looping half way down the runway is not the fault of the wing runner...
Further reports from towpilots indicated that they could rarely see you in their rearview mirrors. In fact, there were several occasions where you were almost released by the towplane.

My best advice is to consider practicing normal takeoff and tow, where you keep the towplane's wheels on the horizon and the rope tight with basic techniques.
Intentional high tow and low tow in heavy, high performance gliders on rough days make things scary for the towpilot and their friends and family.
It is important to be able to recover from unintentional position upset, but there's no reason to intentionally upset your position.
Please, do us all a favor and stay in the standard tow position.

P.S. I hope to never have to see your gear doors up close again...


Hello there Cumungus.

Who are you?

Why would you choose to ridicule me and make your wise suggestions over the internet?

And, why four years after the fact?

  #23  
Old February 27th 19, 04:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
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Default high tow vs low tow

Sounds to me that this method of staying low in ground effect for low tow position will increase the time we spend in the dangerous zone below 200 feet, in addition to transitioning through the wake while low and slow. Personally I prefer to spend as less time as possible down low, and would rather transition to low tow position at safe altitude and safe speed. Especially at high density altitude such as we have in the west, fully ballasted combined with not so powerful towplane, the last thing I would want is to purposely stay in ground effect at the end of the runway while the tow plane slowly climbs higher. I never tried this, so maybe it is not as bad as i think it is.

Ramy
  #24  
Old February 27th 19, 08:02 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default high tow vs low tow

In Australia we now transition higher, I use around 200’ before going into low tow.
I have flown high tow at many overeas comps and still find low tow much more stable.
The only time I fly high tow at home is on long cross country tows where I also pull the gear up (nose hook only!) and let the tug pilot accelerate in level flight.
The issue of tug pilots ignoring what type and weight of glider behind them is much more of a safety issue than the simple high/low equasion.
(I am a tug pilot too!)
Tom
  #25  
Old February 27th 19, 01:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Default high tow vs low tow

On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 10:16:56 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
Sounds to me that this method of staying low in ground effect for low tow position will increase the time we spend in the dangerous zone below 200 feet, in addition to transitioning through the wake while low and slow. Personally I prefer to spend as less time as possible down low, and would rather transition to low tow position at safe altitude and safe speed. Especially at high density altitude such as we have in the west, fully ballasted combined with not so powerful towplane, the last thing I would want is to purposely stay in ground effect at the end of the runway while the tow plane slowly climbs higher. I never tried this, so maybe it is not as bad as i think it is.

Ramy


One reason I will never do this in a ballasted glider is wind shear.

Low tow increases the glider pilot's vulnerability to a slow tow.

best,
Evan
  #26  
Old February 27th 19, 02:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,124
Default high tow vs low tow

On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 10:16:56 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
Sounds to me that this method of staying low in ground effect for low tow position will increase the time we spend in the dangerous zone below 200 feet, in addition to transitioning through the wake while low and slow. Personally I prefer to spend as less time as possible down low, and would rather transition to low tow position at safe altitude and safe speed. Especially at high density altitude such as we have in the west, fully ballasted combined with not so powerful towplane, the last thing I would want is to purposely stay in ground effect at the end of the runway while the tow plane slowly climbs higher. I never tried this, so maybe it is not as bad as i think it is.

Ramy


My experience is that the slightly improved takeoff performance puts the glider at an equal to slightly higher height shortly after transition to the tug climbing attitude.
UH
  #27  
Old February 27th 19, 02:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,124
Default high tow vs low tow

On Wednesday, February 27, 2019 at 7:45:46 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 10:16:56 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
Sounds to me that this method of staying low in ground effect for low tow position will increase the time we spend in the dangerous zone below 200 feet, in addition to transitioning through the wake while low and slow. Personally I prefer to spend as less time as possible down low, and would rather transition to low tow position at safe altitude and safe speed. Especially at high density altitude such as we have in the west, fully ballasted combined with not so powerful towplane, the last thing I would want is to purposely stay in ground effect at the end of the runway while the tow plane slowly climbs higher. I never tried this, so maybe it is not as bad as i think it is.

Ramy


One reason I will never do this in a ballasted glider is wind shear.

Low tow increases the glider pilot's vulnerability to a slow tow.

best,
Evan


If excessively low on tow wind shear can be a factor. Properly flown, my experience is that it is not.
Possibly you can explain your second contention. Slow is slow no matter which position you are in.
UH
  #28  
Old February 27th 19, 03:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Default high tow vs low tow

And I think this is an example of not being properly trained in low tow.
You are in ground effect until the towplane reaches the proper sight view in front of the glider which is not too far off the ground.
If you are looking up at the bottom of the towplane, you waited too long. This would accentuate the negative effect of wind gradient.
  #29  
Old February 27th 19, 04:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 962
Default high tow vs low tow

On Wednesday, February 27, 2019 at 8:52:36 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 27, 2019 at 7:45:46 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 10:16:56 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
Sounds to me that this method of staying low in ground effect for low tow position will increase the time we spend in the dangerous zone below 200 feet, in addition to transitioning through the wake while low and slow. Personally I prefer to spend as less time as possible down low, and would rather transition to low tow position at safe altitude and safe speed. Especially at high density altitude such as we have in the west, fully ballasted combined with not so powerful towplane, the last thing I would want is to purposely stay in ground effect at the end of the runway while the tow plane slowly climbs higher. I never tried this, so maybe it is not as bad as i think it is.

Ramy


One reason I will never do this in a ballasted glider is wind shear.

Low tow increases the glider pilot's vulnerability to a slow tow.

best,
Evan


If excessively low on tow wind shear can be a factor. Properly flown, my experience is that it is not.
Possibly you can explain your second contention. Slow is slow no matter which position you are in.
UH


I think your argument here is that "a properly flown low tow doesn't hurt much." In which case my point has been made, yes?

T8




  #30  
Old February 27th 19, 06:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default high tow vs low tow

Some gliders have the CG hook just forward of the gear doors.Â* I always
raised the gear in my LAK-17a on tow (at a safe altitude, of course) to
get a marginal improvement in climb rate.Â* Everyone says that low tow is
best for XC tows.Â* I've only been on the front end of the rope on an XC
tow, so I can't address the back end.

On 2/27/2019 12:02 AM, wrote:
In Australia we now transition higher, I use around 200’ before going into low tow.
I have flown high tow at many overeas comps and still find low tow much more stable.
The only time I fly high tow at home is on long cross country tows where I also pull the gear up (nose hook only!) and let the tug pilot accelerate in level flight.
The issue of tug pilots ignoring what type and weight of glider behind them is much more of a safety issue than the simple high/low equasion.
(I am a tug pilot too!)
Tom


--
Dan, 5J
 




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