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52/1 Performance in a 15M ship at half the weight.



 
 
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  #22  
Old February 27th 09, 07:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Kuykendall
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Posts: 1,345
Default 52/1 Performance in a 15M ship at half the weight.

On Feb 27, 9:42*am, "
wrote:
While the DuckHawk sounds interesting, and I hope it works, I'm
surprised that it is being designed as a 15m flapped ship. *Most of
the flapped development nowadays is in the 18m class - and while the
15m racing class is still safe, it's probably not where the real
action is going to be in the future (and I say this as a 15m racer
myself).

It would seem that the Duckhawk would have more international appeal
as a Standard class (15m no flaps) ship - wonder how it would perform
without flaps?

Watching with interest....


At ESA Tehachapi '08, Greg did a presentation on the GosHawk electric
airplane he is working on, probably with an eye towards competing in
the green aviation contest that NASA and CAFE are attempting to
collaborate on. Anyhow, it was pretty clear from the specs that the
GosHawk airplane uses the same wing shapes as the DuckHawk sailplane,
though the GosHawk's greater fuselage width and much greater non-
lifting weight probably require some structural differences.

Those who believe that breakthroughs in battery technology are right
around the corner will be really interested in the GosHawk. Greg is
scheduled to be in the Bay Area to give a presentation at the CAFE 3rd
Annual Electric Aircraft Symposium on April 24, 2009 at the Hiller
Aviation Museum in San Carlos, California. You can register online for
only $249, but it's $310 at the door:

http://cafefoundation.org/v2/pav_eas_2009.php

Given that the DuckHawk wings (and their tooling) have multiple
applications, it was probably a pretty closely calibrated decision to
optimize their sailplane application for the waning 15-meter racing
class. And while the fine planform optimization required to achieve
their promised performance probably precludes tip extensions to 18m, I
wouldn't be too surprised to see a version that adds a meter and a
half on a side at the inboard end.

Thanks, and best regards to all
Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24
  #23  
Old February 27th 09, 09:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
noel.wade
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Posts: 681
Default 52/1 Performance in a 15M ship at half the weight.

....and since we're spinning a bit off-topic, here's an update on the
whole "new battery technology" front:

http://gas2.org/2009/01/21/silicon-n...hell-approach/

Having batteries store 3x the current charge of the Antares (or the
same charge for 1/3rd of the weight) sounds nice! Peering into my
(cludy, amateur) crystal ball, I'd bet money that these cells are on
the market in 3 years. The global economic climate isn't favorable
for new entreprenurial investments; but at the same time there's
plenty of excess factory capacity around the world right now, lots of
unemployed people to work in the factories, and batteries are going to
be in high demand for the foreseeable future.

Take care,

--Noel

  #24  
Old February 27th 09, 10:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank[_1_]
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Posts: 126
Default 52/1 Performance in a 15M ship at half the weight.

On Feb 25, 8:11*pm, SF wrote:
I wrote the following article and submitted it to Soaring for
publication because it was something I was interested in and I thought
others would be too. *It was rejected because the subject matter
wasn't suitable for soaring. *Greg Cole is doing something
extraordinary at Windward Performance and I feel that Soaring is doing
all of us a disservice by not putting content like this in the
magazine.
******************



Hm, American technical know-how being used in creative ways to further
soaring and challenge a foreign monopoly... Yep - not suitable for
Boaring magazine ;-)

Frank (TA)
  #25  
Old February 27th 09, 10:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike the Strike
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Posts: 952
Default 52/1 Performance in a 15M ship at half the weight.

On Feb 27, 2:23*pm, Frank wrote:
On Feb 25, 8:11*pm, SF wrote:

I wrote the following article and submitted it to Soaring for
publication because it was something I was interested in and I thought
others would be too. *It was rejected because the subject matter
wasn't suitable for soaring. *Greg Cole is doing something
extraordinary at Windward Performance and I feel that Soaring is doing
all of us a disservice by not putting content like this in the
magazine.
******************


Hm, American technical know-how being used in creative ways to further
soaring and challenge a foreign monopoly... *Yep - not suitable for
Boaring magazine ;-)

Frank (TA)


While we all wish an American entrepreneur all the best in developing
and selling a new sailplane, the article sounds to me more like an
advertising brochure than a factual report. Very long on hype and
short on verifiable facts - especially as to how the new ship will
fly.

Since the factory has been taking deposits for over a year, there is
clearly some doubt as to if and when the new ship will appear. The
factory has a number of other projects on the go and this one may not
be their top priority. (If I were in their shoes, I'd probably
concentrate on producing a lightweight UAV for the military - a market
they've already discovered).

Windward may well produce a sailplane with the best 15-meter
performance in the world, but until one is actually built and flown we
have no way of knowing whether all the computer modeling predictions
are true.

Mike
  #26  
Old February 27th 09, 11:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 154
Default 52/1 Performance in a 15M ship at half the weight.

On Feb 27, 2:59*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
...and since we're spinning a bit off-topic, here's an update on the
whole "new battery technology" front:

http://gas2.org/2009/01/21/silicon-n...ake-two-the-co...

Having batteries store 3x the current charge of the Antares (or the
same charge for 1/3rd of the weight) sounds nice! *Peering into my
(cludy, amateur) crystal ball, I'd bet money that these cells are on
the market in 3 years. *The global economic climate isn't favorable
for new entreprenurial investments; but at the same time there's
plenty of excess factory capacity around the world right now, lots of
unemployed people to work in the factories, and batteries are going to
be in high demand for the foreseeable future.

Take care,

--Noel


Along those lines, I'm very excited about Eestor. I hope they can
produce what they say they can. The power-to-weight ratio would be a
huge advantage for electric aircraft.
  #27  
Old February 27th 09, 11:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tuno
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Posts: 640
Default 52/1 Performance in a 15M ship at half the weight.

snip it's probably not where the real action is going to be in the
future /snip

Certainly not the near future!

2009 Nationals registration counts as of 27 Feb --

15M: 49
18M: 12

And I'd go to the 15M nats too (I have a glider that will do both)
were it not on the east coast!

..02NO
  #28  
Old February 28th 09, 12:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
noel.wade
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Posts: 681
Default 52/1 Performance in a 15M ship at half the weight.

On Feb 27, 2:10*pm, wrote:

Along those lines, I'm very excited about Eestor. I hope they can
produce what they say they can. The power-to-weight ratio would be a
huge advantage for electric aircraft.- Hide quoted text -


Ultracapacitors have some amazing advantages (especially in terms of
cycle time / recharge time)... But even these new ones by companies
like AltairNano and EEStor are turning out to have disappointing
problems or real-world constraints (i.e. much lower useable voltages
or lifetimes compared to the "on-paper" specs and energy density).
EEStor has missed milestones for over a year (2007 stuff was pushed to
mid-2008, and recently pushed back again to mid-2009)... Not a good
sign! http://earth2tech.com/2008/12/26/ees...tones-in-2008/

I personally believe that Lithium Battery technology is the more
likely avenue for progress - since batteries can be dropped into
existing systems without having to re-wire them (to accept capacitor
discharge pulses or other unique systems). Plus, there are several
different avenues of serious research into lithium battery technology
(Yi Cui's group is just one of them) - so the likelihood of at least
one of them coming to market with a viable product is pretty high...

Take care,

--Noel

  #29  
Old February 28th 09, 12:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected][_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 65
Default 52/1 Performance in a 15M ship at half the weight.

On Feb 27, 4:15*pm, Tuno wrote:
snip it's probably not where the real action is going to be in the
future /snip

Certainly not the near future!

2009 Nationals registration counts as of 27 Feb --

* * 15M: 49
* * 18M: 12

And I'd go to the 15M nats too (I have a glider that will do both)
were it not on the east coast!

.02NO


Agreed! That's why I'm smack in the middle of those 49 15Ms!

But look at what is being built right now, and project that forward a
few years....

Of course, that just means it'll be more fun to beat the snotty-nosed
18m ships with a ratty old 15m, winglets (draglets) be damned!

Is this a great sport or what!

Kirk
66
  #30  
Old February 28th 09, 03:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 126
Default 52/1 Performance in a 15M ship at half the weight.

On Feb 27, 4:56*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:
On Feb 27, 2:23*pm, Frank wrote:





On Feb 25, 8:11*pm, SF wrote:


I wrote the following article and submitted it to Soaring for
publication because it was something I was interested in and I thought
others would be too. *It was rejected because the subject matter
wasn't suitable for soaring. *Greg Cole is doing something
extraordinary at Windward Performance and I feel that Soaring is doing
all of us a disservice by not putting content like this in the
magazine.
******************


Hm, American technical know-how being used in creative ways to further
soaring and challenge a foreign monopoly... *Yep - not suitable for
Boaring magazine ;-)


Frank (TA)


While we all wish an American entrepreneur all the best in developing
and selling a new sailplane, the article sounds to me more like an
advertising brochure than a factual report. Very long on hype and
short on verifiable facts - especially as to how the new ship will
fly.

Since the factory has been taking deposits for over a year, there is
clearly some doubt as to if and when the new ship will appear. *The
factory has a number of other projects on the go and this one may not
be their top priority. *(If I were in their shoes, I'd probably
concentrate on producing a lightweight UAV for the military - a market
they've already discovered).

Windward may well produce a sailplane with the best 15-meter
performance in the world, but until one is actually built and flown we
have no way of knowing whether all the computer modeling predictions
are true.

Mike- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Mike,

Yep - I agree with you 100%. However, IMHO, this is just the sort of
thing that *should* be published in Soaring. So what if it doesn't
work out - it's still an exciting development and should be
publicized. Maybe I missed the part where it says that any hint of
speculation or (heaven forbid - enthusiasm!) is grounds for
rejection. Soaring magazine should be leading the charge here, with
photos of the factory floor and interviews with the builder, but
instead it seems to be ignoring the whole thing.

Frank(TA)
 




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