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Flight Simulator now being used by flight instructors



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 25th 03, 05:49 AM
Dashii
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"kallijaa" wrote in message
...
You are out of touch with modern flight simming.

Well, I haven't upgraded to FS9 and my crappy old computer doesn't sport a
2Ghz cpu, so maybe.

A lot of simmers now have several monitors that not only display the
left/right view but the left/right up, top/down, front/back, up/down

views.

A welcome improvement enjoyed by an insignificant few.


You seem to be resistant to change as many old timers are but as surround
"vision" systems are developed and costs reduced, millions of simmers will
be enjoying it.

There is also an IR device that tracks the outside views as you move

your
head.

I also like the germ of that idea


Good! That's a start.

Many like myself also have top quality yokes and rudder pedals/brakes,

mine
is a Precision Flight Control system.

I also use GoFlight instruments.

How delightful for you, and how tiresome for the rest of us.


Tiresome for you maybe but many enjoy having good equipment to use.


Flying airplanes is a hobby much like sailing, bicycling, hang gliding,
mountain climbing, flight simming, swimming, etc.

There are professional pilots just like there are professional sailors,
cyclists, etc.

Tell your CFI that you are approaching flight as a hobby, and so are
unconcerned with flight safety.


I don't approach any hobby being "unconcerned with" safety. I will be as
safe in my aviation hobby as I am in my other hobbies.

Get it out of your head that you are somehow elite and seperate from

someone
that doesn't fly airplanes, you are not.


Alas, your teeming with a lot of news about fancy personal flight
simulators, but lack omniscience.


But you don't?

Anyone with several thousand dollars to spend can get a private pilot
certificate.


Thanks for the revealing insight. Counterfeit certificates are less
expensive and perhaps your only option.


Is that how you got your's? Paid someone to take the exams for you?

I may and then again I may not.

Milton Friedman would be proud.


Never did like that guy.

Let the paint dry and you may yet get out of that corner! G

Dashii

Curses!! Foiled again by Dashii!!!.


Hang in there, your are bound to get better.

Dashii


  #12  
Old October 25th 03, 05:56 AM
Ed Forsythe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I agree completely with all except "yoke" bg. I hate yokes, love sticks
but I am a relic from the past - IP F-86, F-100s
--
Happy Flying,
Ed
"flightsimcfi" wrote in message
news:gLimb.19722$Fm2.9676@attbi_s04...

look folks, I am a CFI, and I am a flight sim guy.

Learning to fly involves learning a huge volume of information. A
flight simulator, when properly used, can help a student to learn some
of this information.

I encourage my students to try things in the simulator, to practice
lessons, to practice procedures, to fly cross countries. The ones that
do this end up saving time and money in the real plane.

The simulator in your PC is not exactly the same as the real plane. But
neither is chair flying, or reading a book about flying, or watching a
King Schools video. MS flight simulator is a training tool, nothing
more, nothing less.

I saved tons of time and money because I flew flight simulators when
growing up (back in the Apple ][e days). I know it works, I also know I
learned bad habits, but when I started to learn to fly the real thing, I
quickly learned what transferred directly from simming and what didn't,
thanks to my CFI.

For those of you that want more out the window view and less panel, try
seeing what the "W" key does. Also the +/- keys for zooming.

For those of you that want to fly their cross countries more quickly in
the simulator, accelerate time, or use the "Y" key to activate Slew mode
so you can move the plane around instead of flying it around. This is a
nice way to view the scenery.

Please also consider hitting "Shift-Backspace" and "Shift-Enter" to
raise and lower your seat when in the cockpit.

For you CFI's who worry that your students will build bad habits.....
you are right. Pilots build bad habits when they fly simulators, but
they also build bad habits when they fly real airplanes. Pilots learn
bad habits when they read newsgroup articles, and they learn bad habits
when they read magazines about flying.

The only way to avoid bad habits is to teach them early on to never stop
learning, and to never stop being vigiliant of their own habits and
behaviors.

I also tell students to get a yoke, and if they can afford it, rudder
pedals.



  #13  
Old October 25th 03, 07:00 AM
Al Denelsbeck
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"kallijaa" wrote in
:


Oh, really? I recall you describing how you use "outside views." How
do you access those outside views and where are your eyes focused
during that process? Let me guess: You switch to outside view using
your keyboard or a switch on your flight controls. Am I getting warm?
Then you look at those outside views on the same display used to view
the instrument panel and the slim strip of the sim world atop.
Warmer?

By that process you are training your head to habitually remain
stationary and your eyes to look forward at all times. Those are the
kind of habits that hinder progress in flight training.

Kalijaa



Oh, give me a ****ing break! Are you honestly trying to argue that
instructors have to train somebody to turn their heads because they lost
this ability through simming?

Those of us who transition between auto transmission cars, standard
trucks, and motorcycles on a routine basis would call you a moron. So would
the helo pilots who later obtained a fixed-wing rating. These are far more
involved, and much more ingrained as habits, than anything you might
develop in a sim. Moreover, flight instructors are used to dealing with
people that have no concept of aerodynamics, instrumentation, or thinking
in three dimensions, and flight schooling is geared around that, very
specifically. Arguing that 'changing views' is looked upon as a habit that
needs to be broken is unbelieveably ignorant.


- Al.

--
To reply, insert dash in address to separate G and I in the domain
  #14  
Old October 25th 03, 09:09 AM
kallijaa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Dashii" wrote in message
...

"kallijaa" wrote in message
...
You are out of touch with modern flight simming.

Well, I haven't upgraded to FS9 and my crappy old computer doesn't sport

a
2Ghz cpu, so maybe.

A lot of simmers now have several monitors that not only display the
left/right view but the left/right up, top/down, front/back, up/down

views.

A welcome improvement enjoyed by an insignificant few.


You seem to be resistant to change as many old timers are but as surround
"vision" systems are developed and costs reduced, millions of simmers will
be enjoying it.

You got that one wrong. The only reason I don't have one of those is the
price of one of those.

There is also an IR device that tracks the outside views as you move

your
head.

I also like the germ of that idea


Good! That's a start.

Many like myself also have top quality yokes and rudder pedals/brakes,

mine
is a Precision Flight Control system.

I also use GoFlight instruments.

How delightful for you, and how tiresome for the rest of us.


Tiresome for you maybe but many enjoy having good equipment to use.

I'm only just now gauging your density, must I also plumb your depth? The
tiresome part is hearing you gush over your toys.

Flying airplanes is a hobby much like sailing, bicycling, hang

gliding,
mountain climbing, flight simming, swimming, etc.

There are professional pilots just like there are professional

sailors,
cyclists, etc.

Tell your CFI that you are approaching flight as a hobby, and so are
unconcerned with flight safety.


I don't approach any hobby being "unconcerned with" safety. I will be as
safe in my aviation hobby as I am in my other hobbies.

Sure you will.

Get it out of your head that you are somehow elite and seperate from

someone
that doesn't fly airplanes, you are not.


Alas, your teeming with a lot of news about fancy personal flight
simulators, but lack omniscience.


But you don't?

Oh, but I do. The trick is avoiding the need. Start by discovering your
own limitations.

Anyone with several thousand dollars to spend can get a private pilot
certificate.


Thanks for the revealing insight. Counterfeit certificates are less
expensive and perhaps your only option.


Is that how you got your's? Paid someone to take the exams for you?

No, but that's one of the ways "Anyone with several thousand dollars to
spend" might wind up with a certificate. Counterfeits might be cheaper, but
they amount to the same thing. There are always niches for those who rely
on purchasing power

I may and then again I may not.

Milton Friedman would be proud.


Never did like that guy.

Somehow, that news fails to disquite me.

Let the paint dry and you may yet get out of that corner! G

Dashii

Curses!! Foiled again by Dashii!!!.


Hang in there, your are bound to get better.


Thank you, that's is a consummation devoutly to be wished. Now I have to
think of something nice to say about you.


i uh

i can't seem to . . . uh . to . .


Curses, foiled again!!!



  #15  
Old October 25th 03, 09:36 AM
kallijaa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Al Denelsbeck" wrote in message
. 6...
"kallijaa" wrote in
:


Oh, really? I recall you describing how you use "outside views." How
do you access those outside views and where are your eyes focused
during that process? Let me guess: You switch to outside view using
your keyboard or a switch on your flight controls. Am I getting warm?
Then you look at those outside views on the same display used to view
the instrument panel and the slim strip of the sim world atop.
Warmer?

By that process you are training your head to habitually remain
stationary and your eyes to look forward at all times. Those are the
kind of habits that hinder progress in flight training.

Kalijaa



Oh, give me a ****ing break! Are you honestly trying to argue that
instructors have to train somebody to turn their heads because they lost
this ability through simming?

Instructors have to train students to turn their heads because they have a
natural tendency to look forward and at the insturment panel. The
difficulty varies with individuals, but it is a common condition. Those who
have developed, re-enforced and associated the habit with flying, will have
the most difficulty.

Those of us who transition between auto transmission cars, standard
trucks, and motorcycles on a routine basis would call you a moron. So

would
the helo pilots who later obtained a fixed-wing rating. These are far more
involved, and much more ingrained as habits, than anything you might
develop in a sim. Moreover, flight instructors are used to dealing with
people that have no concept of aerodynamics, instrumentation, or thinking
in three dimensions, and flight schooling is geared around that, very
specifically. Arguing that 'changing views' is looked upon as a habit that
needs to be broken is unbelieveably ignorant.

There's a lot more to it than changing of views. The practice of facing
forward, limiting eye scan to a narrow range and associating that condition
with the controling of an aircraft will train a non-flyer to continue that
practice in the air. The habit can be overcome in most if not all cases,
but it does require extra time and effort. That can easily be the
difference between success and failure.


- Al.



  #16  
Old October 25th 03, 03:59 PM
Quilljar
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ed Forsythe wrote:
I agree completely with all except "yoke" bg. I hate yokes, love
sticks but I am a relic from the past - IP F-86, F-100s



I agree, IRL I won't fly a plane with a yoke if I can help it. They turn a
flying experience in to some sort of limosine; Yuck!



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 22/10/2003


  #17  
Old October 25th 03, 04:05 PM
Dudley Henriques
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Quilljar" wrote in message
...
Ed Forsythe wrote:
I agree completely with all except "yoke" bg. I hate yokes, love
sticks but I am a relic from the past - IP F-86, F-100s



I agree, IRL I won't fly a plane with a yoke if I can help it. They turn a
flying experience in to some sort of limosine; Yuck!



I ferried a P38L once that you might have enjoyed flying :-)))

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt


  #18  
Old October 25th 03, 07:56 PM
Dashii
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"kallijaa" wrote in message
news

"Dashii" wrote in message
...

"kallijaa" wrote in message
...
You are out of touch with modern flight simming.

Well, I haven't upgraded to FS9 and my crappy old computer doesn't

sport
a
2Ghz cpu, so maybe.

A lot of simmers now have several monitors that not only display the
left/right view but the left/right up, top/down, front/back, up/down
views.

A welcome improvement enjoyed by an insignificant few.


You seem to be resistant to change as many old timers are but as

surround
"vision" systems are developed and costs reduced, millions of simmers

will
be enjoying it.

You got that one wrong. The only reason I don't have one of those is the
price of one of those.

There is also an IR device that tracks the outside views as you move

your
head.

I also like the germ of that idea


Good! That's a start.

Many like myself also have top quality yokes and rudder

pedals/brakes,
mine
is a Precision Flight Control system.

I also use GoFlight instruments.

How delightful for you, and how tiresome for the rest of us.


Tiresome for you maybe but many enjoy having good equipment to use.

I'm only just now gauging your density, must I also plumb your depth? The
tiresome part is hearing you gush over your toys.


Was I "gush"ing? Heh, well my gushing has turned into flushing, I'm done
with you now.

*PLONK

Dashii


  #19  
Old October 26th 03, 12:32 AM
kallijaa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Dashii" wrote in message
...

"kallijaa" wrote in message
news

"Dashii" wrote in message
...

"kallijaa" wrote in message
...
You are out of touch with modern flight simming.

Well, I haven't upgraded to FS9 and my crappy old computer doesn't

sport
a
2Ghz cpu, so maybe.

A lot of simmers now have several monitors that not only display

the
left/right view but the left/right up, top/down, front/back,

up/down
views.

A welcome improvement enjoyed by an insignificant few.

You seem to be resistant to change as many old timers are but as

surround
"vision" systems are developed and costs reduced, millions of simmers

will
be enjoying it.

You got that one wrong. The only reason I don't have one of those is

the
price of one of those.

There is also an IR device that tracks the outside views as you

move
your
head.

I also like the germ of that idea

Good! That's a start.

Many like myself also have top quality yokes and rudder

pedals/brakes,
mine
is a Precision Flight Control system.

I also use GoFlight instruments.

How delightful for you, and how tiresome for the rest of us.

Tiresome for you maybe but many enjoy having good equipment to use.

I'm only just now gauging your density, must I also plumb your depth?

The
tiresome part is hearing you gush over your toys.


Was I "gush"ing? Heh, well my gushing has turned into flushing, I'm done
with you now.

*PLONK

Dashii



Gee, I'm sure gonna miss that guy.


  #20  
Old October 26th 03, 07:46 AM
Al Denelsbeck
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"kallijaa" wrote in
:


"Al Denelsbeck" wrote in message
. 6...


Oh, give me a ****ing break! Are you honestly trying to argue
that
instructors have to train somebody to turn their heads because they
lost this ability through simming?

Instructors have to train students to turn their heads because they
have a natural tendency to look forward and at the insturment panel.
The difficulty varies with individuals, but it is a common condition.
Those who have developed, re-enforced and associated the habit with
flying, will have the most difficulty.


Very good, Skippy, you're talking about a routine part of flight
instruction, just like using one hand on the yoke and maintaining proper
mixture. But that wasn't the issue we were discussing now, was it? I
believe we were talking about instructors having a significant amount of
difficulty in un-training someone used to a computer sim from pressing
buttons to look around.


There's a lot more to it than changing of views. The practice of
facing forward, limiting eye scan to a narrow range and associating
that condition with the controling of an aircraft will train a
non-flyer to continue that practice in the air. The habit can be
overcome in most if not all cases, but it does require extra time and
effort. That can easily be the difference between success and
failure.


Since you're offering this so comfortably, you undoubtedly have a
reputable source at hand that backs up your claims. So trot it out. Because
I'm telling you right now you're full of ****.

CFIs have numerous things they have to train students to do, many of
them that the student is not used to doing. This is nothing unusual. You're
going to have to produce a lot more than reiterating basics of instruction
to support your contention that simming, as you indicated very specifically
above, can and does lead to flight school failure, or even (and I'm being
extremely generous here) a noticeably extended amount of time in reaching
certification.

Put your money where your mouth is, Skippy. We're waiting.



- Al.

--
To reply, insert dash in address to separate G and I in the domain
 




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