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Runway needs of F4U and F-4 ????



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 4th 05, 03:22 AM
vincent p. norris
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Default Runway needs of F4U and F-4 ????

Anyone here old enough to know the take-of distance of an F4U under
ordinary circumstances? (i.e., not loaded to the gills with ammo,
drop tanks, bombs, etc) How about landing roll?

(I realize the answers vary by altitude, temperature, wind, etc., but
would like just a "round number" answer.)

Can anyone provide the same info for an F-4?

Thanks. vince norris
  #2  
Old October 4th 05, 08:00 AM
Mike Kanze
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Vince,

Re the F4U, I'll check with my Dad, who was the F4U-4 Project Officer at Pax River during the mid-1940s, and who flew F4U-5Ns with VC-3 during Korea.

At 90 (last month), he's "old enough to know," and could probably keep pace with Grampaw Pettibone in many other respects. g

--
Mike Kanze

"What the American people have seen is this incredible disparity in which those people who had cars and money got out and those people who were impoverished died."

-- Ted Kennedy on Hurricane Katrina

"Ditto."

-- The ghost of Mary Jo Kopechne


"vincent p. norris" wrote in message ...
Anyone here old enough to know the take-of distance of an F4U under
ordinary circumstances? (i.e., not loaded to the gills with ammo,
drop tanks, bombs, etc) How about landing roll?

(I realize the answers vary by altitude, temperature, wind, etc., but
would like just a "round number" answer.)

Can anyone provide the same info for an F-4?

Thanks. vince norris
  #3  
Old October 4th 05, 01:03 PM
Guy Alcala
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"vincent p. norris" wrote:

Anyone here old enough to know the take-of distance of an F4U under
ordinary circumstances? (i.e., not loaded to the gills with ammo,
drop tanks, bombs, etc)


For a clean early (no Water inj.) F4U-1 with full internal fuel (incl.
wing tanks), oil and ammo weighing 12,676lb., 750 feet at sea level, Hard
surface, ISA and no wind. This from Dean's "America's Hundred Thousand",
based on the flight manual and USN flight test data.

He gives 840 feet for the F4U-1D (12,289 lb.). Assuming that's not a
typo, the extra t/o run despite the lighter weight is presumably due to
the fitment of the stall strip on the starboard wing, as that apparently
decreased the max. lift coefficient considerably.

I have the S.A.C. chart for the F4U-4, but unfortunately it doesn't show
data for a clean a/c mission. The lightest mission shown is with a 150
gal. drop tank (900 lb. of fuel plus the weight of the tank), at a gross
weight of 13,597 lb. In that configuration, t/o distance from a deck in
zero wind takes 790 feet; with 25 knots wind it's 377 feet. Presumably
t/o from an airfield would be somewhat longer. Dean shows a clean F4U-4
(12,281 lb.) needing 630 feet, which seems reasonable. I'm guessing all
of Dean's figures are for deck T/Os.

How about landing roll?


Sorry, no info.

(I realize the answers vary by altitude, temperature, wind, etc., but
would like just a "round number" answer.)


Zeno's warbird site used to have the F4U-1 takeoff and climb chart (along
with several others for it and other a/c) online as viewable/downloadable
pdf files. They tend to be a bit hard to find on the site, as they're
pushing videos, but you can usually locate them with a bit of looking.
If you can't find it, I can email you the file.

Can anyone provide the same info for an F-4?


From the USAF SAC chart for the F-4C, T/O ground run with 4 x AIM-7s and
three tanks is 3,380 feet. In ferry config. with 3 tanks and no ordnance
it's 3,120 feet. The slightly lighter F-4D is 3,360 and 3,090 feet, for
the same configs, and the (probably unslatted) F-4E is 3,490 and 3,230
feet. Losing the tanks saves 9,575lb., but I don't have any data on t/o
distance at that weight. It's kind of moot, though, because F-4s just
don't go anywhere without external fuel.

Guy




  #4  
Old October 5th 05, 03:05 AM
vincent p. norris
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Re the F4U, I'll check with my Dad, who was the F4U-4 Project Officer at Pax River during the mid-1940s, and who flew F4U-5Ns with VC-3 during Korea.

Thanks, Mike.

At 90 (last month), he's "old enough to know," and could probably keep pace with Grampaw Pettibone in many other respects. g


Grampaw Pettibone was my favorite reading in Naval Aviation News, many
years ago. Enjoyed the Osborne drawings, too!

vince norris

  #5  
Old October 5th 05, 03:24 AM
vincent p. norris
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They tend to be a bit hard to find on the site, as they're
pushing videos, but you can usually locate them with a bit of looking.
If you can't find it, I can email you the file.


Thanks, Guy.

vince norris
  #6  
Old October 5th 05, 04:58 AM
Peter Stickney
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vincent p. norris wrote:

Anyone here old enough to know the take-of distance of an F4U under
ordinary circumstances? (i.e., not loaded to the gills with ammo,
drop tanks, bombs, etc) How about landing roll?


From the Pilot's Handbook for the F4U-1, Hard Surface Runway, Sea
Level, Standard Day, no wind:
Takeoff
at 11,700#, Ground Roll 680 ft, 1,350 ft to clear 50'
At 13,100#, Ground Roll 910 ft, 1,820' to clear 50'
Landing
at 11,000#, 50 degrees flap 2080' to clear 50', 970' ground roll.

For the F4U-5, same conditions, 12,800#,
Takeoff Ground Roll is 730', 1370' to clear 50'
Landing, at 12,000#, 2000' to clear 50', 1050' ground run.



(I realize the answers vary by altitude, temperature, wind, etc.,
but would like just a "round number" answer.)

Can anyone provide the same info for an F-4?


My F-4 books are tucked away at the moment - give me a day.

--
Pete Stickney
Java Man knew nothing about coffee.
  #7  
Old October 6th 05, 01:30 AM
vincent p. norris
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From the Pilot's Handbook for the F4U-1.......,

My F-4 books are tucked away at the moment - give me a day.


Thanks, Peter.

vince norris
  #8  
Old October 6th 05, 04:03 AM
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F4, combat load, my DaNang rule of thumb, max gross+, 1004, sea level,
4400 feet to lift-off. I say max gross plus because for about 9 months
we were taxiing 2-3000 over gross because no one had actually sat down
and updated the weight and balance after various mods and load
additions. One of the benefits? of SACumsized maintenance was that Wing
QC was responsible for all that W&B paperwork and not the squadrons. As
if we worried about it, anyway, at least not until the CBU38 mine
dispensers were loaded on the inboard TERs and the first crew aborted
because the beast wouldn't rotate at 195 KIAS. FWIW our usual load was
CL bag, MERs with 12xMk82, TERs with a jammer, 2xAIM7, 2xAIM9.
Did fly about 2 dozen CAS missions with 18xMk82s.
Walt BJ

  #9  
Old October 6th 05, 07:18 PM
Mike Kanze
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Vince,

Dad says Peter and Guy have the right numbers, as far as he can recollect.

--
Mike Kanze

"What the American people have seen is this incredible disparity in which those people who had cars and money got out and those people who were impoverished died."

-- Ted Kennedy on Hurricane Katrina

"Ditto."

-- The ghost of Mary Jo Kopechne

"vincent p. norris" wrote in message news
Re the F4U, I'll check with my Dad, who was the F4U-4 Project Officer at Pax River during the mid-1940s, and who flew F4U-5Ns with VC-3 during Korea.

Thanks, Mike.

At 90 (last month), he's "old enough to know," and could probably keep pace with Grampaw Pettibone in many other respects. g


Grampaw Pettibone was my favorite reading in Naval Aviation News, many
years ago. Enjoyed the Osborne drawings, too!

vince norris

 




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