Houston JS1c crash ONLY (not in any way about a Puchaczs, or anything else!)

At 14:19 19 July 2014, wrote:
On Thursday, July 17, 2014 2:55:57 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler
wrote:
For the love of god, please discuss no other subjects here
but the JS1
an=
d this very sad accident. =20
=20
=20
=20
Do we even know that this accident involved a spin yet?
Any factual
info=
rmation? Did anyone see it spinning? It easily could have
been a medical
=
or a structural failure or rigging issue, etc? Has anything new
been
learn=
ed about this accident other than that the glider crashed and a
pilot was
f=
atally injured. =20
=20
=20
=20
It is sickening to me when an accident happens. But I think
its
importan=
t to do what it takes to understand the cause and increase my
knowledge.
T=
he previous thread had almost no value in terms of the JS1 or
this
accident=
and is clearly drifting off into the abyss.
=20
=20
=20
I was very close to ordering a JS1c this summer. I would
like to race
18=
/Open more than 18/15 as 15 is likely going to be
handicapped soon. I
have=
put a purchase decision off for a bit, but still have serious
interest in
=
the JS1c for the future as it is clearly very strong in both 18m
and Open
c=
lass around the world. =20
=20
=20
=20
Personally, I think the JS1c is as safe as any other modern
glider.
That=
is to say that they are all high performance aircraft with
massive wings,
=
tiny control surfaces and a tendency to fly with aft CG most of
the time,
e=
tc, etc (;-)). =20
=20
=20
=20
I would love to hear other meaningful and relevant opinions
about the
JS1=
c as well as any updates relating to the cause of this terrible
accident. =
=20
=20
=20
=20
So basically, unless you have flown a JS1, own a JS1 or
plan on buying a
=
JS1 there is probably not alot you can add (or subtract) from
this thread.
=
Sorry...but true.
=20
=20
=20
Sincerely,
=20
=20
=20
Sean
=20
=20
=20
Sean

I'm interested in ordering a JS1-Cj too Sean. Please share the
responses
yo=
u received.

I don't want my private email posted on a public forum and I
have asked Sean not to do so. However I have copied and
slightly edited below the relevant parts of my email to him.
My impressions are those of an experienced older pilot but not
a top competitor.

The first thing to dispel about JS1s is the story about them
being "built in a shed". I spent 2 full long days at the factory
in January and while they were still using a hangar space for
final tinkering around, instrumentation work and final assembly
on new gliders, the major part of the manufacturing is done in
beautiful spacious new premises designed specifically for the
purpose. Their workshops, staff training regimes and general
impression of organisation is very positive.

I spoke to several of the engineers and workers and found they
were highly motivated and proud of their work and I have been
very happy with the build quality and engineering on my glider.
Having said that, the long established manufacturers have over
many years established their own individual solutions to the
little hidden engineering problems with linkages and controls
etc and there were several minor mods to such things in the
early gliders - but nothing significant except for the rudder S-
tube design. That was a complete aberration IMHO but the
modified design follows all the good design features of the
other major manufacturers.

After collection from the factory I flew my glider (S/N 59) at
Bloemfontein for a few weeks in January so, apart from the
first flight at the factory which was 21m and dry, all my early
flights were with the glider ballasted to 560-600kg in 18m or
around 660 kg in 21m mode, and in relatively strong turbulent
conditions. I found the handling of the JS1 to be very pleasant
- very stable but responsive. The aerodynamic flaperon control
forces are heavier than my previous 18m Discus aileron forces
but the reward is much better roll response when you want it.
There is good rudder coordination except in 21m mode and dry
when thermalling at low speeds - around 46knots then you can
momentarily run out of rudder if you are too vigorous with the
roll rate. In ballasted 21m mode I don't find that - presumably
because the airspeed is higher.

The cockpit is wonderfully comfortable and the handling
generally so pleasant that I find it is like flying around lazily in
a comfortable armchair - unlike SH cockpits that all give me a
sore back.

The approach control is good but not spectacular like one of the
new Duo XLs. I tend not to use full landing flap as it floats a
long way and then tends to bounce on my home strip in
Scotland which is a bit bumpy. One thing I don't like is having
the wheelbrake on the airbrake handle as you sometimes have
to reduce airbrake on round out then touch down then let go to
go to negative flaps (as much to protect the flaps when the
wing touches down as for roll control) then back to the airbrake
handle to apply wheel brake. It gets a bit busy.

Winch launching is very easy with a very short run before take
off with the flaps at setting 4.

Aerotow is also very easy because the glider is so stable but I
find it to "floaty" in flap postion 4 and tend to use 3. Ballasted
then I ask for a minimum speed of 70 knots - especially in 21m
- and Uys emphasised that speed as the absolute minimum for
21m at 720kg (which I can't get up to).

Performance-wise it is obviously fully competitive in 18m
mode. I flew a 560k OR task in SA with the 21m tips shared
with an 18m JS1 and a Ventus 2cxt (all ballasted) and it was
clear that the 21m JS1 climbed and cruised better and I was
able to catch and pass them quite easily. Handling-wise when
ballasted I find the JS1 nicer in 21m but when dry I prefer it in
18m.

I have no qualms at all about flying my glider either from the
structural or flying characteristic point of view but I do make
sure that the aerotow speed is sufficient just in case.

John Galloway

Gents,

I am not going to post people's private emails to me on a public forum without their express permission. I would love to share all that I have learned but that's not how I wish to operate. It would be a violation of trust. If they wanted their messages to me on RAS, they would have posted here on RAS in the first place!

I would not be surprised if some people choose to make public comments here on RAS in the future, but I can also understand how some would make a conscious decision to avoid the joys and sorrows of participating in a RAS thread. ;-) That's just a simple fact. So, I am not surprised that too many of the emails I received did not include the statement, "go ahead and post this on RAS for me..."

If you are truly interested in a JS1 (have the potential of truly owning one or flying one), you are welcomed to send me a PM or email me so that we can discuss further.

Thanks,

Sean



On Saturday, July 19, 2014 10:19:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, July 17, 2014 2:55:57 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:

For the love of god, please discuss no other subjects here but the JS1 and this very sad accident.







Do we even know that this accident involved a spin yet? Any factual information? Did anyone see it spinning? It easily could have been a medical or a structural failure or rigging issue, etc? Has anything new been learned about this accident other than that the glider crashed and a pilot was fatally injured.







It is sickening to me when an accident happens. But I think its important to do what it takes to understand the cause and increase my knowledge. The previous thread had almost no value in terms of the JS1 or this accident and is clearly drifting off into the abyss.







I was very close to ordering a JS1c this summer. I would like to race 18/Open more than 18/15 as 15 is likely going to be handicapped soon. I have put a purchase decision off for a bit, but still have serious interest in the JS1c for the future as it is clearly very strong in both 18m and Open class around the world.







Personally, I think the JS1c is as safe as any other modern glider. That is to say that they are all high performance aircraft with massive wings, tiny control surfaces and a tendency to fly with aft CG most of the time, etc, etc (;-)).







I would love to hear other meaningful and relevant opinions about the JS1c as well as any updates relating to the cause of this terrible accident.







So basically, unless you have flown a JS1, own a JS1 or plan on buying a JS1 there is probably not alot you can add (or subtract) from this thread.. Sorry...but true.







Sincerely,







Sean







Sean



I'm interested in ordering a JS1-Cj too Sean. Please share the responses you received.

Nicely put Sean.

Ramy

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 2:55:57 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
For the love of god, please discuss no other subjects here but the JS1 and this very sad accident.



Do we even know that this accident involved a spin yet? Any factual information? Did anyone see it spinning? It easily could have been a medical or a structural failure or rigging issue, etc? Has anything new been learned about this accident other than that the glider crashed and a pilot was fatally injured.



It is sickening to me when an accident happens. But I think its important to do what it takes to understand the cause and increase my knowledge. The previous thread had almost no value in terms of the JS1 or this accident and is clearly drifting off into the abyss.



I was very close to ordering a JS1c this summer. I would like to race 18/Open more than 18/15 as 15 is likely going to be handicapped soon. I have put a purchase decision off for a bit, but still have serious interest in the JS1c for the future as it is clearly very strong in both 18m and Open class around the world.



Personally, I think the JS1c is as safe as any other modern glider. That is to say that they are all high performance aircraft with massive wings, tiny control surfaces and a tendency to fly with aft CG most of the time, etc, etc (;-)).



I would love to hear other meaningful and relevant opinions about the JS1c as well as any updates relating to the cause of this terrible accident.



So basically, unless you have flown a JS1, own a JS1 or plan on buying a JS1 there is probably not alot you can add (or subtract) from this thread. Sorry...but true.



Sincerely,



Sean



Sean

Thanks John Galloway. I hope other JS1 owners will share their evaluations.

Yes, well said John G. Thanks for sharing. Very valuable to hear an owners perspective.

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 2:45:15 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, July 17, 2014 2:55:57 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:

For the love of god, please discuss no other subjects here but the JS1 and this very sad accident.







Do we even know that this accident involved a spin yet? Any factual information? Did anyone see it spinning? It easily could have been a medical or a structural failure or rigging issue, etc? Has anything new been learned about this accident other than that the glider crashed and a pilot was fatally injured.







It is sickening to me when an accident happens. But I think its important to do what it takes to understand the cause and increase my knowledge. The previous thread had almost no value in terms of the JS1 or this accident and is clearly drifting off into the abyss.







I was very close to ordering a JS1c this summer. I would like to race 18/Open more than 18/15 as 15 is likely going to be handicapped soon. I have put a purchase decision off for a bit, but still have serious interest in the JS1c for the future as it is clearly very strong in both 18m and Open class around the world.







Personally, I think the JS1c is as safe as any other modern glider. That is to say that they are all high performance aircraft with massive wings, tiny control surfaces and a tendency to fly with aft CG most of the time, etc, etc (;-)).







I would love to hear other meaningful and relevant opinions about the JS1c as well as any updates relating to the cause of this terrible accident.







So basically, unless you have flown a JS1, own a JS1 or plan on buying a JS1 there is probably not alot you can add (or subtract) from this thread.. Sorry...but true.







Sincerely,







Sean







Sean



Thanks John Galloway. I hope other JS1 owners will share their evaluations.

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 12:55:57 PM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
For the love of god, please discuss no other subjects here but the JS1 and this very sad accident.



Do we even know that this accident involved a spin yet? Any factual information? Did anyone see it spinning? It easily could have been a medical or a structural failure or rigging issue, etc? Has anything new been learned about this accident other than that the glider crashed and a pilot was fatally injured.



It is sickening to me when an accident happens. But I think its important to do what it takes to understand the cause and increase my knowledge. The previous thread had almost no value in terms of the JS1 or this accident and is clearly drifting off into the abyss.



I was very close to ordering a JS1c this summer. I would like to race 18/Open more than 18/15 as 15 is likely going to be handicapped soon. I have put a purchase decision off for a bit, but still have serious interest in the JS1c for the future as it is clearly very strong in both 18m and Open class around the world.



Personally, I think the JS1c is as safe as any other modern glider. That is to say that they are all high performance aircraft with massive wings, tiny control surfaces and a tendency to fly with aft CG most of the time, etc, etc (;-)).



I would love to hear other meaningful and relevant opinions about the JS1c as well as any updates relating to the cause of this terrible accident.



So basically, unless you have flown a JS1, own a JS1 or plan on buying a JS1 there is probably not alot you can add (or subtract) from this thread. Sorry...but true.



Sincerely,



Sean





Here's the link to the NTSB preliminary report on the accident.....It really says very little.....

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...17X31349&key=1

For what it's worth, I have about 5 flights in the 18m JS-1. These flights were conducted in wave and thermals and from my little experience in the JS-1, I was thoroughly impressed with it's handling characteristics, especially at slow speeds. It was extremely easy to fly and even in rotor, handled exceptionally well at slow speeds at various bank angles. There weren't any sneaky things about it throughout all flight regimes.
Personally I think it's totally coincidental that several accidents occurred in the JS-1C within a relatively short time period. I sat through Uys Jonker's talk at the convention and if my memory serves me correctly, he mentioned that during flight testing, the JS-1C was fully loaded with water, then water depleted from one wing, and then the aircraft intentionally spun into the heavy wing with a successful recovery. Pretty impressive. It's a really strong glider.
I'm not making any comparisons to other similar sailplanes. Just my take on the JS-1.

Thanks,
Gordon Boettger

Thanks Gordon. That spin test is amazing! Is that a typical test for certification of sailplanes?

Bummer then NTSB prelim is so useless as usual.


On Sunday, July 20, 2014 8:37:23 PM UTC-4, nimbus wrote:
For what it's worth, I have about 5 flights in the 18m JS-1. These flights were conducted in wave and thermals and from my little experience in the JS-1, I was thoroughly impressed with it's handling characteristics, especially at slow speeds. It was extremely easy to fly and even in rotor, handled exceptionally well at slow speeds at various bank angles. There weren't any sneaky things about it throughout all flight regimes.

Personally I think it's totally coincidental that several accidents occurred in the JS-1C within a relatively short time period. I sat through Uys Jonker's talk at the convention and if my memory serves me correctly, he mentioned that during flight testing, the JS-1C was fully loaded with water, then water depleted from one wing, and then the aircraft intentionally spun into the heavy wing with a successful recovery. Pretty impressive. It's a really strong glider.

I'm not making any comparisons to other similar sailplanes. Just my take on the JS-1.



Thanks,

Gordon Boettger

Yes, it's been done before. There's a great story about the Schweizer 1-35
flight test with one tank full and the other empty. Bernie Carras (who
was the corporate test pilot for a long time) had a hard time getting
the spin to break. It finally recovered fairly low, and he landed the
plane. He gave the plane a few extra kicks once he got out, just for
good measure!

Matt

That's crazy. Well here is to test pilots keeping us safe!

I suppose that one wing losing its water is a very real scenario. I was at Canadian Nationals this summer when a brand new ASG-29 returned to the airport with a bit of a problem. The tank seal (a 3x4 panel on the very inboard part of the wing thru which the ballast dump valve control rod runs) failed "partially" while in flight.

When the pilot landed, he realized that his cockpit was half full of water .. The wing water tank had been draining into the cockpit. Other water was likely draining out the gap between the wing and the fuselage as well (depends on the tape job I suppose). How much water was out of that wing gap we will never be know but it was likely not insignificant. Yikes.

I hope that never scenario never happens to me (or anyone else) but I feel better knowing the manufactures are testing that scenario for us. It is amazing that just a tiny seal is all that keeps the water in the wing on the 29.

Anyone know what possible wing water system failures have happened (or are possible) on other gliders such as the JS1, Ventus, Duckhawk, etc?


On Sunday, July 20, 2014 10:31:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Yes, it's been done before. There's a great story about the Schweizer 1-35

flight test with one tank full and the other empty. Bernie Carras (who

was the corporate test pilot for a long time) had a hard time getting

the spin to break. It finally recovered fairly low, and he landed the

plane. He gave the plane a few extra kicks once he got out, just for

good measure!



Matt