Helicopter Buzzes Wal-Mart

In article .com,
wrote:

"I think your altitude estimation skills need a bit of practice. "

Could be. My vision is distorted, and I only had a few seconds to grab
this shot.

"It looks to me like the chopper is at least 200 feet up."

I believe the helicopter was within 100 feet of me when I took the
photo. It looks small, so you might think it is farther away.

The apparent width of the helicopter, which looks like a Hughes
500, seems to be at most 1/8 that of the back of the SUV, which
should be roughly the same size (allowing for measuring
imprecision). That means it's at least 8 times further
away. Presumably you could measure the distance from where
you were standing to the third parking space. At the stores
I've been at, that would be on the order of 100 feet. That
would put the helicopter at around 800 feet away. It would
be a simple matter to determine the altitude by measuring the
height of the apparent position on the light pole and
multiplying by the appropriate factor (since for government
work the pole and the SUV are the same distance from the
camera). It looks like maybe 30 feet, which would give an
altitude of 250 feet.

Of course, if it was one of those Dangerchopper things that
only hold a single pilot for a brief shining moment until
they wind up in a field, it would be probably four
times closer and lower. That might be well under a hundred
feet up (remember that I tried to estimate the *minimum*
altitude and distance).

In either case, his estimation skills seem like they might at
least plausibly be good. It would be interesting to carry
out more precise measurements, but what would be the point?
Maybe the pilot is on the group and can tell us how high
he was.

As for Walmort, the camera thing seems like a good reason
not to shop there. They're probably worried about competitors
checking their prices (they'll throw you out if you're writing
down prices too, I bet) and as a dinosaurian company they're
too slow and stupid to realize that ten percent of their
customers have cameras in their cell phones.

Mike Beede

"He felt that he found a creative way to thumb his nose
at their 'No photos' policy."

How nefarious!

I took a photo inside a Fry's Electronics store, back when I did not
know they had a policy against it. I soon found out, as someone walked
up to me and told me it wasn't allowed. No one tried to get the single
photo I had taken, though, and I still have it.

But, see, Fry's lets people take cameras inside their store. I have to
get a yellow slip with the serial number filled out before I go into
the main part of the store, but they have never given me any trouble
about carrying a camera around inside the store. Most merchants don't
give me any trouble for it.

I realize that helicopters have a lot of flight freedom, but it is
still shocking to see one flying directly towards oneself like this.

Why? It is always flying towards somebody.

But not at eye level, which it almost was just a few seconds before
that photo was taken. It was climbing rapidly when I took that shot.

Anyway, if that helicopter is
only 50-70 feet up it is an RC model. I know that you insist that you
were
there and know better, but what did you do, use a tape measure? How
the heck
do you know that it was only 50-70 feet up?

I know it wasn't 1000 feet up, as someone suggested. I might accept 200
feet feet, as an outside stretch. 100 feet does not look like an
unreasonable estimate. But, my impression at the time of the photo was
that it was about 50 feet above the ground when I took the picture.
But, then, as I say, it was in a rapid climb, from just high enough to
clear the parked cars, to high enough to clear the roof of the
building. Keep in mind, too, that I was running towards the windows of
the store, as I tried to get a shot before the helicopter got out of my
field of view. It takes my camera 5 seconds to boot up, then another
few seconds to lock onto a target and snap the photo. I jogged from the
cash registers in the front of the store over to the windows at the
front while my camera was booting. I did not have time to get a second
photo, which I would have done if I could have.

The helicopter didn't start climbing very fast until I had almost
reached the windows, and I was trying to decide whether to get the shot
from inside the store, or risk another few seconds going outside the
store. When I saw the helicopter begin to rise quickly, I quickly took
the shot from inside the store. Within another 3 seconds, it was over
the top of the building.

This one, measuring by the height of the fuselage, is at least 150
feet up.

I'm pretty certain it was under 150 feet, and over 50 feet.

There are some third hand accounts of Wal-Mart having a policy of not
allowing photography in their stores.

Photography, I understand banning. But, they aren't just banning
photography. They are banning cameras completely.

Apparently the chain is concerned about competitors who have been
sending corporate spies into the stores to study inventory control.

Several years ago, I worked for a marketing company. I carried around a
portable computer, called a Telxon, which I used to scan the bar codes
of products I was paid to monitor. I had to perform my job in several
different stores, including Albertsons, Krogers, Winn-Dixie, Target,
K-Mart and various other stores, in addition to Wal-Mart. Sometimes,
when I would finish, I would go grocery shopping. Several times, a
Wal-Mart manager (obviously on the verge of hysteria) would demand to
know what I was doing as I pushed my grocery cart with my Telxon in the
cart. After I explained that I was buying groceries for myself, the
manager would give me a lecture about not scanning any of their prices,
and then go away.

Just as a guess, analysis of a series of pictures
could tip off competitors into Wal-Mart's ordering and restocking
practices, which would be very valuable information.

Oh, I can tell you what Wal-Mart's restocking practice is. There
practice is to fill up all the aisles with pallets of goods, while
removing the products that I had become accustomed to buying. Even
though there are pallets of goods in all the aisles every night, they
are always out of stock of something that I want.

OK, I hope I didn't give away too many company secrets with that.

Given enough study, one could re-engineer Wal-Mart's whole
computerized inventory control system.
Considering that Wal-Mart spent a fortune on this system, I doubt
that they
would be interested in just handing it over to a competitor for free.

If I wanted to spy on Wal-Mart, I would find a better way of doing it
than by hanging an Olympus around my neck.

Right now, I could buy cameras that fit inside the frames of my glasses
and the buttons of my shirts. If I wanted to do so, I could record
every inch and every product code in their entire store, and they would
never even see it. Indeed, the true value of security would not be in
keeping someone out; it would be in making it too expensive for them to
use the information they obtained.

Places like MIT are prototyping personal video systems that are
intended to record all the events of a person's day, for their entire
life. I have seen several of these prototype systems. I expect they
will become fairly common within 15 years, much like cell phones are
now. Wal-Mart is not going to stop progress.

The apparent width of the helicopter, which looks like a Hughes
500, seems to be at most 1/8 that of the back of the SUV, which
should be roughly the same size (allowing for measuring
imprecision). That means it's at least 8 times further
away. Presumably you could measure the distance from where
you were standing to the third parking space. At the stores
I've been at, that would be on the order of 100 feet. That
would put the helicopter at around 800 feet away.

I have several advantages over you in these estimates. I already
mentioned one, that I was actually there, and I have first-hand
knowledge of the store, parking lot and event. But, I also have a
larger photo on my home computer. The original photo is 2048 x 1536
pixels. I resized it to 800 x 600 for the Web.

There is no way the helicopter is 800 feet distant in the photo. It had
already crossed more than half of the parking lot by the time I took
the photo, and you should be able to see that the parking lot is not
800 feet wide. You might notice the corner of a gas station canopy in
the lower left-hand corner. That is Wal-Mart/Sam's gas station, at the
far end of the parking lot. I would say the gas station is about 300
feet away.

I believe the helicopter is a little closer to the store than is the
white pickup truck that appears directly below it in the photo.

As for Walmort, the camera thing seems like a good reason
not to shop there.

Unfortunately, most of the grocery stores in this area close early.
Wal-Mart is the only 24-hour grocery store within several miles, as far
as I know. I usually work evenings, so the only store open when I get
off work is Wal-Mart.

LOL, I bet they are confused why I visit their store at all hours of
the day and night!

"Also, I take my pda / phone / camera in there all the time. "

I have worn my Olympus C-3040s around my neck for the last 4 years

The difference is mine is in my pocket.

(and had another camera on my hip for a year prior). I try to have it
with me at all times. I've taken it into several Wal-Marts in several
cities in two states. I have never before had a Wal-Mart
representative tell me that I cannot bring my camera inside the
store. Now, though, they tell me I can't shop there if I have my
camera.

Well, now you know. No more wearing the camera in the store.

"William W. Plummer" wrote in message
...
Always looking for a fight, eh.

Who? The person posting as "Newps" is the one who arbitrarily decided your
post needed contesting.

Personally, I think your original post is just fine as is and was defending
it. I see that "Newps" is ever-ready with his snap judgments and
oh-so-sharp wit, but his reply still doesn't explain why you shouldn't have
used the word "police".

Pete

Mike Beede wrote:
The apparent width of the helicopter, which looks like a Hughes
500, seems to be at most 1/8 that of the back of the SUV, which
should be roughly the same size (allowing for measuring
imprecision).

Take a closer look. It's either a Hughes 269 or 300. They are about the
only thing outside an R44 or a Brantley that use a 3 blade rotor
system. The forward section of the cabin and the skid are definately
Hughes. The 269/300 has a cabin width of only about 4 feet.
Craig C.

wrote in message
ups.com...

Given enough study, one could re-engineer Wal-Mart's whole
computerized inventory control system.
Considering that Wal-Mart spent a fortune on this system, I doubt
that they
would be interested in just handing it over to a competitor for free.

If I wanted to spy on Wal-Mart, I would find a better way of doing it
than by hanging an Olympus around my neck.


Oh, I did not say that Wal-Mart's security is effective. The bigger the
organization, the less effective and the more offensive security is. If
Wal-Mart grows much bigger they will be wanding all their customers with
metal detectors before allowing them to buy guns.

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:55:17 -0800, "Peter Duniho"
wrote:

Please describe the difference between "police" and "check". To me, there
is none in this context. You've never "policed" your campground before
leaving? "Police" doesn't necessarily mean you're looking for criminals.

Well, in that sense it means picking up trash, as in "Awright! Saddle
up! Police your butts!"


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

Hay P....,
The real issue is not determining the altitude of the chopper from your
photo, it is your assumption that the chopper pilot is doing something
wrong. (not)
Did you discuss this with the FSDO? (nope)...
Have that discussion and you will add to your knowledge of the FAR's...

Did you know that choppers are required to fly the pattern at the
airport in the opposite direction of the fixed wing traffic, i.e. going
directly at them on base leg? (nope, etc.)
Did you know that choppers are allowed to fly vfr in ifr conditions?
(nope)

As far as Wally World banning cameras, I have one in my jacket 24/7, I
just don't flash it in people's faces, so it has never been
questioned...
Cheers ... Denny