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  #11  
Old October 19th 18, 02:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Papa3[_2_]
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On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 7:16:20 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:43:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Most power(only) pilots are NPCs.


:7|

T8


Had to check with my teenage son on that one. Spot on! :-)
  #12  
Old October 19th 18, 05:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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I had to look it up.Â* Guess I'm not "hip" any more...

On 10/18/2018 5:16 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:43:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Most power(only) pilots are NPCs.

:7|

T8


--
Dan, 5J
  #13  
Old October 19th 18, 05:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobW
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Until they changed the min crossing altitude of the Julian VOR, on wave days,
we routinely lost pilots or in one case while I was flying a glider in the
same area an instructor and student. Pretty sure they got into serious down
air, pulled back to best climb speed in their CE 172. I find the young
airplane only guys I know are frightening in what they do not know. Don't
know how to read clouds, don't understand wind flow in the terrain....
- - - - - -

Warning!!! - Philosophical riff follows...

When I was a wet-behind-the-ears, 150-hour, glider-only, tyro, flying nut, I
had the opportunity to ride along with a power flying buddy sucking
brain-knollich from a one-time Alaska bush pilot. At that time I'd ride with
anyone, greedily slurping through the knollich straw myself. To my (great)
surprise, perhaps 90% of the "generic mountain-centric" - i.e.
non-power-centric - words of wisdom proffered by the bush pilot was "stuff" I
was already aware of through glider instruction and continuing self-education.
(Mercy!)

Some years - and a whole lot of additional personal
mountain-soaring-experience later - a friend gave me a copy of Sparky Imeson's
"Mountain Flying" book...power-centric of course, information-dense, and (IMO)
well worth internalizing despite (for me) not containing very much
glider-centric new knollich/tidbits.

Fairly recently and many more years later (thanks to the web), I learned
Sparky Imeson "had killed himself" while (apparently) engaged in some
thin-margin, (at-least-semi-)mountainous-terrain flying in his
personally-owned airplane. Though I'd never met the man, it saddened and
(further) sobered me to the inherent, unavoidable, risks associated with
flight (of any sort) *near* essentially-immovable things to hit.

"What's your major point?" I hear impatient readers ask. I think I have several...
- It's entirely normal - unavoidable! - for Joe Pilot to progress *away* from
the state of "Beginner's ignorance" and *toward* "Experienced pilot," until
death stops piloting fun.
- That progression's gonna happen *regardless* of Joe Pilot's mindset (e.g.
curious or incurious, prudent or imprudent, etc.).
- It's entirely normal (IMO) for "more experienced pilots" to (eventually)
bemoan the state of affairs of "today's tyros"...but doing so (to me, anyway)
is (choose whichever you wish): more self-indulgent than meaningful?
kinda-sorta off-target?
- YOUR (i.e. Joe Pilot's) mindset *matters* to your continued-survival chances
inside the cockpit. Lots of aphorisms exist addressing this (non-obvious?)
truism (e.g.): Never carry a package by the string. Always have an out/Plan B
(and C and D). Flying is unforgiving of inattention or "general foolishness."
Ignorance can kill. Etc.

With winter approaching in the northern hemisphere, some easy-reading, daily
skimming of (e.g.) the (somewhat-funky/clunky) Kathryn's Report website (with
which I have zero involvement), easily/entertainingly/sadly shines
real-world-light on some of the above obvious (to me, anyway), aphoristic,
generalized, musings. In Joe-Pilot-centric terms, the "vast majority" of
(typically, entirely avoidable) piloting deaths are due to:
ignorance/poor-judgment/off-target or non-internalized training. "Kids, don't
DO those things!!! Your chances of continuing opportunities for additional
stick-hours will be increased by working really hard at having *ONLY* those
sorts of accidents that will fall into the category of, "Man! I wonder
what-in-heck underlies this particular set of fatal piloting circumstances?"

Bob W.

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  #14  
Old October 19th 18, 05:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Papa3[_2_]
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Posts: 753
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On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 12:01:12 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
I had to look it up.Â* Guess I'm not "hip" any more...

On 10/18/2018 5:16 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:43:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Most power(only) pilots are NPCs.

:7|

T8


--
Dan, 5J


The very fact that you used the word "hip" means that, by definition, you are not hip :-) Word.
  #15  
Old October 19th 18, 06:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
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Effen LOL!

On 10/19/2018 10:35 AM, Papa3 wrote:
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 12:01:12 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
I had to look it up.Â* Guess I'm not "hip" any more...

On 10/18/2018 5:16 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:43:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Most power(only) pilots are NPCs.
:7|

T8

--
Dan, 5J

The very fact that you used the word "hip" means that, by definition, you are not hip :-) Word.


--
Dan, 5J
  #16  
Old October 19th 18, 07:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
James Betker
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On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 10:31:23 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Effen LOL!

On 10/19/2018 10:35 AM, Papa3 wrote:
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 12:01:12 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
I had to look it up.Â* Guess I'm not "hip" any more...

On 10/18/2018 5:16 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:43:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Most power(only) pilots are NPCs.
:7|

T8
--
Dan, 5J

The very fact that you used the word "hip" means that, by definition, you are not hip :-) Word.


--
Dan, 5J


I think you're expecting a bit much. That question isn't simple by any means - it's pretty close to the classic "how do wings generate lift" question. E.g. it's full people tripping over other people saying the wrong words but thinking the same things.

Anyone with time in a overpowered aircraft or even a powerful model airplane knows that when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises. This is because flight in general is an energy state equation. If you add more energy into the system either speed or altitude is going to need to increase and in most cases both do. Surely, the fastest way to get it is to transfer potential energy into kinetic with the pitch control. I'm sure if you changed the question: "what is the fastest way to increase airspeed?", more pilots would answer your question "correctly".

Granted - it does seem that most powered (only) guys don't understand the three types of energy and how they relate to one another. Maybe this is what you guys are talking about.
  #17  
Old October 19th 18, 11:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 1,463
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On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 12:30:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Well, the "right answer" is probably not as clear cut as that. For example, the French "blue book" (the official glider training handbook in France) has stated for years that on final, you have to adjust the glide slope by changing the pitch of the airplane and you have to control the airspeed with the airbrakes. That is the exact opposite of what had been taught by the former editions of the book, and there was a storm of protest from most of the "old school" instructors when this was introduced.

The last issue I possess (issue 10) still uses wordings that stress the primary use of pitch to get to the right slope for the final approach, while using the brakes to keep the approach speed constant.

During a flight instructor course at Saint-Auban, we had to be able to apply this method. It works, but is certainly less intuitive than the classic approach. The main problem is that in every other fase of the flight, we don't normally use the airbrakes and are thus accustomed to control the speed by altering the pitch. It seems stupid to change that habit on finals.

That's probably why even in France, most instructors seem to go back to the classic approach when teaching in their club. So do I...


Very interesting, thank you much for sharing! I think I will stay with stick for airspeed and airbrake/throttle for glideslope, works in fix wing or rotor wing.
  #18  
Old October 20th 18, 04:44 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 1,463
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On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 11:49:20 AM UTC-7, James Betker wrote:
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 10:31:23 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Effen LOL!

On 10/19/2018 10:35 AM, Papa3 wrote:
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 12:01:12 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
I had to look it up.Â* Guess I'm not "hip" any more...

On 10/18/2018 5:16 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:43:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Most power(only) pilots are NPCs.
:7|

T8
--
Dan, 5J
The very fact that you used the word "hip" means that, by definition, you are not hip :-) Word.


--
Dan, 5J


I think you're expecting a bit much. That question isn't simple by any means - it's pretty close to the classic "how do wings generate lift" question. E.g. it's full people tripping over other people saying the wrong words but thinking the same things.

Anyone with time in a overpowered aircraft or even a powerful model airplane knows that when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises. This is because flight in general is an energy state equation. If you add more energy into the system either speed or altitude is going to need to increase and in most cases both do. Surely, the fastest way to get it is to transfer potential energy into kinetic with the pitch control. I'm sure if you changed the question: "what is the fastest way to increase airspeed?", more pilots would answer your question "correctly".

Granted - it does seem that most powered (only) guys don't understand the three types of energy and how they relate to one another. Maybe this is what you guys are talking about.


"when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises." I would respectfully submit that when you add throttle you climb, you pitch to remain at constant altitude which is why the airspeed goes up? I know in a T-33 I would rather depend on pitch than power to recover from impending stall, same with T-6,.... gliders, helicopters.
  #19  
Old October 21st 18, 04:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
James Betker
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Posts: 7
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On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 8:44:46 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 11:49:20 AM UTC-7, James Betker wrote:
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 10:31:23 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Effen LOL!

On 10/19/2018 10:35 AM, Papa3 wrote:
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 12:01:12 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
I had to look it up.Â* Guess I'm not "hip" any more...

On 10/18/2018 5:16 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:43:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Most power(only) pilots are NPCs.
:7|

T8
--
Dan, 5J
The very fact that you used the word "hip" means that, by definition, you are not hip :-) Word.

--
Dan, 5J


I think you're expecting a bit much. That question isn't simple by any means - it's pretty close to the classic "how do wings generate lift" question. E.g. it's full people tripping over other people saying the wrong words but thinking the same things.

Anyone with time in a overpowered aircraft or even a powerful model airplane knows that when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises. This is because flight in general is an energy state equation. If you add more energy into the system either speed or altitude is going to need to increase and in most cases both do. Surely, the fastest way to get it is to transfer potential energy into kinetic with the pitch control. I'm sure if you changed the question: "what is the fastest way to increase airspeed?", more pilots would answer your question "correctly".

Granted - it does seem that most powered (only) guys don't understand the three types of energy and how they relate to one another. Maybe this is what you guys are talking about.


"when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises." I would respectfully submit that when you add throttle you climb, you pitch to remain at constant altitude which is why the airspeed goes up? I know in a T-33 I would rather depend on pitch than power to recover from impending stall, same with T-6,... gliders, helicopters.


I'm not an aerodynamicist, so I can't say for sure. I just know from what experience I have that planes seem to speed up AND climb when power is added.. I'm sure there's an equation out there somewhere..

Totally agree with you about pitch. Not saying your question has no merit, just that it is worded in a way that might confuse some folks.
  #20  
Old October 21st 18, 04:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default Greatful for this group

I recall from my Air Force training, a drawing of the total lift curve
and the position of the aircraft along it, and the explanation went
something like this:

When power is applied, the aircraft speed increases causing, an increase
in lift, which causes the aircraft to climb at the trimmed speed.Â*
Reduce power and the speed decreases causing a decrease in lift, which
causes the aircraft to descend at the trimmed speed.Â* In either case,
the speed change was only momentary.Â* If the position of the flight
controls is not changed, power controls altitude.



On 10/21/2018 9:15 AM, James Betker wrote:
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 8:44:46 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 11:49:20 AM UTC-7, James Betker wrote:
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 10:31:23 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Effen LOL!

On 10/19/2018 10:35 AM, Papa3 wrote:
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 12:01:12 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
I had to look it up.Â* Guess I'm not "hip" any more...

On 10/18/2018 5:16 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:43:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Most power(only) pilots are NPCs.
:7|

T8
--
Dan, 5J
The very fact that you used the word "hip" means that, by definition, you are not hip :-) Word.
--
Dan, 5J
I think you're expecting a bit much. That question isn't simple by any means - it's pretty close to the classic "how do wings generate lift" question. E.g. it's full people tripping over other people saying the wrong words but thinking the same things.

Anyone with time in a overpowered aircraft or even a powerful model airplane knows that when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises. This is because flight in general is an energy state equation. If you add more energy into the system either speed or altitude is going to need to increase and in most cases both do. Surely, the fastest way to get it is to transfer potential energy into kinetic with the pitch control. I'm sure if you changed the question: "what is the fastest way to increase airspeed?", more pilots would answer your question "correctly".

Granted - it does seem that most powered (only) guys don't understand the three types of energy and how they relate to one another. Maybe this is what you guys are talking about.

"when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises." I would respectfully submit that when you add throttle you climb, you pitch to remain at constant altitude which is why the airspeed goes up? I know in a T-33 I would rather depend on pitch than power to recover from impending stall, same with T-6,... gliders, helicopters.

I'm not an aerodynamicist, so I can't say for sure. I just know from what experience I have that planes seem to speed up AND climb when power is added. I'm sure there's an equation out there somewhere..

Totally agree with you about pitch. Not saying your question has no merit, just that it is worded in a way that might confuse some folks.


--
Dan, 5J
 




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