Winch Experts wanted

Or chicken here in the US;^)

According to last Sunday's paper, a lot of acreage near here (Greeley,
Colorado) is going into mustard seed for bio-diesel production.

Frank Whiteley

"tango4" wrote in message
...
Have you ever smelt a diesel running on used vegetable oil?

It's just like standing in the local Fish and Chip shop!

Ian

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
...

"Craig Freeman" wrote in message
om...
(Ulrich Neumann) wrote in message
om...
Bruce and Bill,

these were very insightful contribution to this subject. I think
that
nobody in his right mind would set out to purposely build an
underpowered winch. I think you cannot have too much power, as long
as
it is controlable. The ECU's of modern big rig diesels would allow
you
to have a preset power setting for each glider with an available
override.

True today's electronic can be programed to various power outputs.
However it is not possible to do this in a way that would be useful
in the winch application. At least not through the engines computer.
To reprogram the engine you first have to be trained and then have
access to the OEM codes. Only dealers and certified shops get these
codes and then it varies engine by engine as to specific results.
Also to time consuming and not able to make small enough adjustments
to be useful in winch launching. However an external system such
as Bill has proposed could tell the engine "give me more or give me
less". Until a system such as this is built and proven there is
no substitute for the human bean, er brain.


I have it on "pretty good" authority that these ECU's are simple to hack
or
reverse engineer. Several gray market operations have already done it
and
offer replacement ECU's with extensive user controls accessible through
a
serial port from a laptop running special software. The market demand
seems
to be coming from the participants in tractor pull competitions.

I would tend to think that the maximum power setting of the ECU would be
best used as a safety limit set to , say, 10% over the expected power
demand. With 3000 + foot pounds of torque available on these large
diesels,
a winch driver sneeze at just the wrong time might produce interesting
results. If we go to a "full authority" autolaunch system, having a
separate power limiting safety net seems like a good idea.

You know, there is another "feel good" thing about diesels. There is a
rapidly expanding supply of renewable "biodiesel" fuel whose source is
vegetable oils produced domestically. Since CO2 went into growing the
crop
that produced the oil, releasing it back into the atmosphere results in
no
net increase in atmospheric CO2. With biodiesel fuel, a diesel runs
better, lasts longer and sure smells better. It's a little more
expensive
than petroleum based diesel but at .4 liters of fuel per launch, you
aren't
going to use much of it.

Bill Daniels

Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...
Marcel Duenner wrote:


So?
Our setup: 222kW (300hp) turbocharged diesel, 6 drums, 1000m of steel
cable. This winch has handled everything including a 4DM. Even a
slight tailwind and a ASH25 are no real problem.
Samedan, the highest airport in Europe at over 5600ft MSL, has the
same winch with four drums. No problems at all. It's heaven compared
to the voluminous petrol monster they had before.
BTW these winches use an average of 0.4 litres of Diesel per launch.

How much petrol per launch did the previous winch use? Is there a big
price difference between the two fuels?

Don't know about theirs. The winch we had before this one was a 380hp
GM Engine, built about 1964. We used just under 1 litre of petrol with
that. Yes, they really swallow a lot at over 4000rpm.
Price difference between the two fuels is marginal here in
Switzerland, diesel being a bit more expensive most of the time. All
around us Diesel is much cheaper than Petrol.
Keep in mind that fuel prices in Europe are about four times the US
prices.
Also, as someone else already posted, fuel price is only one of many
things adding to the total launch cost.

(Craig Freeman) wrote in message . com...
"Bob Korves" wrote in message ...
"Craig Freeman" wrote in message


I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar) dealer. We are
full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and
Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the ECU's of
these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for high school
drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the engines. Shrink
wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it would probably
be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor, "electronic
foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to do what you
need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
-Bob Korves


I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company services
around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig at
the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again. Believe
me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under the
hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal.
The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers have,
all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and service
writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we can
reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to
know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will
probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application.
Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out.
I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition.
"to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective
winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA
using commercially available parts without a whole lot of
modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near
future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a design.
By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should
probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner
I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are
flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you.

Craig-

After more investigation I have the following which may help
carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least,
does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of
their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of
the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle
shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change
HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes
are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good
news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes
available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel
pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry.
It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay
when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door. YeeeHaa!!
I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and
retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a
platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent
increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern
is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp
range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's
output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own complications.

Craig-

Marc Ramsey wrote in message .com...
Craig Freeman wrote:
By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
build a winch if such a design were presented?

I'd build one, but with the constraint that it can be built on a trailer
that can be pulled by a mid-size pickup or SUV (under 4000 lbs. total).
Anything larger, or built on a truck is, in my opinion, not practical
for anything other than primarily fixed site usage.

Marc

That's one. I got the portable under 4000 lbs covered. What other
things would you like to see. One drum, two, three, ten? Do you
have a budget in mind? What tools do you have available? How much
time do you have?

Craig-

"Craig Freeman" wrote in message
After more investigation I have the following which may help
carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least,
does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of
their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of
the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle
shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change
HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes
are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good
news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes
available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel
pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry.
It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay
when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door. YeeeHaa!!
I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and
retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a
platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent
increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern
is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp
range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's
output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own complications.

Craig-

Craig, that's good enough for me. I wouldn't want to control the diesel
with the ECU hack, just use it as a safety limit on torque output. The idea
is to make sure that if the autothrottle went haywire or a ham handed winch
driver turned the wick up too far there would be no danger of damaging a
glider.

Bill Daniels

"Craig Freeman" wrote in message
om...
(Craig Freeman) wrote in message
. com...
"Bob Korves" wrote in message
...
"Craig Freeman" wrote in message


I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar) dealer. We
are
full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and
Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the ECU's
of
these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for high
school
drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the engines.
Shrink
wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it would
probably
be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor,
"electronic
foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to do
what you
need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
-Bob Korves


I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company services
around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig at
the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again. Believe
me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under the
hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal.
The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers have,
all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and service
writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we can
reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to
know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will
probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application.
Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out.
I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition.
"to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective
winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA
using commercially available parts without a whole lot of
modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near
future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a design.
By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should
probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner
I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are
flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you.

Craig-

After more investigation I have the following which may help
carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least,
does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of
their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of
the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle
shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change
HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes
are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good
news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes
available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel
pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry.
It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay
when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door. YeeeHaa!!
I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and
retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a
platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent
increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern
is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp
range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's
output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own complications.

Craig-

Craig, define "midsize diesel". Would a Cummins N14 qualify?

Bill Daniels

In article ,
says...
(Craig Freeman) wrote in message . com...
"Bob Korves" wrote in message ...
"Craig Freeman" wrote in message


I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar) dealer. We are
full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and
Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the ECU's of
these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for high school
drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the engines. Shrink
wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it would probably
be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor, "electronic
foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to do what you
need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
-Bob Korves


I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company services
around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig at
the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again. Believe
me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under the
hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal.
The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers have,
all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and service
writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we can
reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to
know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will
probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application.
Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out.
I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition.
"to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective
winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA
using commercially available parts without a whole lot of
modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near
future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a design.
By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should
probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner
I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are
flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you.

Craig-

After more investigation I have the following which may help
carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least,
does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of
their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of
the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle
shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change
HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes
are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good
news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes
available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel
pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry.
It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay
when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door. YeeeHaa!!
I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and
retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a
platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent
increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern
is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp
range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's
output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own complications.

Craig-

Just a lurker here, with great interest in soaring, but little
experience. However, I may have some expertise in the subject of this
thread.

If I had never seen a sailplane winch, a clean sheet as it were, the
winch I would design would be an engine (fuel makes little difference
at this stage) and generator. The drums would be powered by an
electric motor(s) via a variable speed drive(s). A variable speed
drive can be programmed and operated through a computer, with
virtually every parameter of motor operation infinitely variable.

For example, the parameters for every sailplane could be configured
for the drive and then it would be a simple mouse click to set all
the launch variables for any sailplane configuration.

You could get so slick with this. Maximum cable speed could be set.
Maximum acceleration rates could be set. Every conceivable parameter
could be set and modified in seconds. Man, it would be so cool.

And another nice thing about it? Everything is very reliable, long
lived, and reasonably priced on the used market.

And there ain't nothin' that pulls like an electric motor. Ever been
on a high speed electric train? They just pull and pull and pull.
Maximum torque at zero rpm.

A good engineer would have a field day with this. What a great
project this could be.

Craig Freeman wrote:
That's one. I got the portable under 4000 lbs covered. What other
things would you like to see. One drum, two, three, ten?

I don't see need for more than two.

Do you have a budget in mind?

$15000 or under would be great, $20000 is at the edge of making the
whole thing infeasible.

What tools do you have available? How much
time do you have?

My approach would be to pull together a group in Northern California and
Nevada to fund and construct it as a non-profit corporation. Tools,
skills, and time available would be dependent on who I could get to sign
on...

Marc

"Littleboy" wrote in message
ews.com...
In article ,
says...
(Craig Freeman) wrote in message
. com...
"Bob Korves" wrote in message
...
"Craig Freeman" wrote in message


I am a parts person at an International Trucks (Navistar) dealer.
We are
full service dealers for International, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and
Caterpillar engines. It is certainly possible to reprogram the
ECU's of
these diesels. We do it every day. Simple and easy enough for high
school
drop outs to do. I sell the software for reprogramming the engines.
Shrink
wrap stuff, just like at the computer store. That said, it would
probably
be possible to just replace the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor,
"electronic
foot pedal") with a microprocessor circuit and get the thing to do
what you
need. I am not a computer nerd, so I don't know the details...
-Bob Korves


I still hear too many stories from truck owners, (my company services
around 2000 trucks a month) that say after reprograming their rig at
the dealer something was not right and it had to be done again.
Believe
me I understand that some of them don't even know what is under the
hood of their K Whopper or Petercar but some do know a great deal.
The excess of 100 years of experience which my store managers have,
all certified deisel mechanics and former shop foreman's and service
writers with one the big three engine manufacturers, say yes we can
reprogram but results vary engine to engine and the only way to
know exactly what you have is to put it on the dyno. It will
probably be close but maybe not close enough for this application.
Maybe the tractor pull guys have it all figured out.
I wish to redirect your attention to the original proposition.
"to come up with a design for a safe, reliable, and cost effective
winch, which could be built by a group of amateurs in the USA
using commercially available parts without a whole lot of
modifications". I think that is a worthwhile goal and in the near
future some US clubs might begin to take advantage of such a design.
By a show of hands is there anyone out there who might actually
build a winch if such a design were presented? If not, we should
probably just go flying. Come on down Bill, I'll bet you dinner
I can snap your head back in that big ole heavy glider you are
flying too. Be sure and bring a heavy link with you.

Craig-

After more investigation I have the following which may help
carify the engine reprogramming discussion. Cummins, at least,
does sell disks which allow the owner to reprogram the ECU's of
their engines. However these disks allow only for the setting of
the peimeters of the engine. Examples are, top idle speed, idle
shut down, auto jake brake, but not HP and torque. When you change
HP and torque outputs it's called "recallibration" and these codes
are locked up by the OEM's and are not sold. Now for the good
news, there are aftermarket hackers selling "recallibration" codes
available for late model midsize diesels. Motorhome and diesel
pickup owners looking for more power are driving this industry.
It voids any warrenty of course but what a small price to pay
when you could get a tire smokin' dually one ton four door. YeeeHaa!!
I have a connection with one rather large aftermarket designer and
retailer. We have posed the question to him if he could build a
platform of codes which could increase HP in say 5 to 10 percent
increments and be able to input quickly from a laptop. One concern
is to select a engine which is designed to perform within the hp
range needed. We don't need to soup up a engine just control it's
output. Trying to detune a very large diesel has its own complications.

Craig-

Just a lurker here, with great interest in soaring, but little
experience. However, I may have some expertise in the subject of this
thread.

If I had never seen a sailplane winch, a clean sheet as it were, the
winch I would design would be an engine (fuel makes little difference
at this stage) and generator. The drums would be powered by an
electric motor(s) via a variable speed drive(s). A variable speed
drive can be programmed and operated through a computer, with
virtually every parameter of motor operation infinitely variable.

For example, the parameters for every sailplane could be configured
for the drive and then it would be a simple mouse click to set all
the launch variables for any sailplane configuration.

You could get so slick with this. Maximum cable speed could be set.
Maximum acceleration rates could be set. Every conceivable parameter
could be set and modified in seconds. Man, it would be so cool.

And another nice thing about it? Everything is very reliable, long
lived, and reasonably priced on the used market.

And there ain't nothin' that pulls like an electric motor. Ever been
on a high speed electric train? They just pull and pull and pull.
Maximum torque at zero rpm.

A good engineer would have a field day with this. What a great
project this could be.




Google: "Elektrostartwinde ESW 2B" and use the German to English language
tools. Search further with "segelflug elektrowinde". These boys use 50 car
batteries recharging them from the mains or a diesel genset.

Take a look at: http://www.skylaunch.de/album/index.html for a album of
winch pictures.

Look at: http://www.dassu.de/Wir_uber_uns/Ele...ktrowinde.html for
a stationary electric winch.

Electric winches could be (are) everything you say. My initial
investigation indicated the cost was way too high, but then I'm far from an
expert on high power electric drive stuff. Read the web pages above and
post your opinions.

Bill Daniels

I've been reading all these posts w/ lots of interest. The basic winch
design is clearly fairly forgiving of specific design details due to the
number of cobbled together winches which are out there. Probably
hundreds worldwide.

Take a frame and a cab and add to that a powerful engine, transmission,
and some cable guides. All of this, while not easy, is straight forward
and parts are readily available for cheap depending on whether you want
to buy new (or rebuilt) or if you go scrounging for deals.

The one trick item that I see which could stand for some specific
development is a way to more effectively modify a rear axle off of a
vehicle so that you maintain a 3/1 ratio from the drive shaft yet can
positively disengage both wheels and then selectively engage either the
right wheel or the left wheel to achieve the dual drum winch.

There either needs to be a way to install a synchronizer type
transmission coupling between the differential and the wheel or
disengage the wheel at the end of the 1/2 shaft. This one part is the
only item that's not already designed for "us".

The Japanese are famous for copying designs which work well and then
continuing to improve upon them. Might as well start with something
that looks a lot like the Skylaunch since I think most of us would agree
that Skylaunch is probably the gold standard out there. Unfortunately,
with the current exchange rate a Skylaunch is well over $100,000 U.S.
Take that basic configuration, improve upon it, but keep it inexpensive.

This project should probably be moved to a slightly different forum like
a yahoo group where people interested in participating can do so without
filling up RAS. This also allows the sharing of files and even voting
on ideas as the project starts to take shape. We're definitely onto
something here, lets get started. We should start by doing some
deciding as to what will be designed. 1 or 2 or more drums.....

Mark

remove duplicate "hot" to reply direct