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New Butterfly Vario



 
 
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  #61  
Old February 9th 12, 07:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,124
Default New Butterfly Vario

On Feb 9, 1:21*pm, Bruno wrote:
Thank you Rules Committee for going through the effort to get this
done so quickly. I have a Butterfly Vario on order and am relieved
there is now a mechanism in place for it to remain in the glider
during contests. Fingers are crossed that Butterfly will be able to
make the software changes necessary to implement these rules for the
2012 season.

Thanks again,
Bruno - B4


We worked with Butterfly in developing this process and they are on
board.
UH
  #62  
Old February 9th 12, 07:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]
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Posts: 321
Default New Butterfly Vario

On Feb 9, 1:25*pm, Bart wrote:
On Feb 9, 9:32*am, John Cochrane
wrote:

When you look at it this way, you see that not only do we need a ban
on AH, it has to be very clear to everyone that the ban is enforced.
Everyone around you needs to see that you're not carrying an AH. It's
not enough to say "oh yeah, that big thing in the panel. I pulled the
tube out the back." You may have, but others don't really know you
have, so we again unwind the gentleman's agreement.


John,

What is the policy regarding unidentified instruments? You see, I
happen to enjoy making my own gadgets.
Let's imagine that I entered a competition and you are the CD or a
fellow competitor. You glance at my panel and see this weird, LCD
screen. Out of curiosity, you ask "what is it?".

My answers:

(1) I would rather not answer.
(2) It's an intelligent vario. I made it myself!
(3) It's an intelligent vario. One with g-meters, gyros etc. I made it
myself!
(4) It's an intelligent vario. One with g-meters, gyros etc. I made it
myself! In theory, it could even act as an AH, I just haven't written
the firmware yet.
(5) It's an intelligent vario. One with g-meters, gyros etc. I made it
myself! It could even act as an AH, but I have a vario-only version of
firmware loaded right now.
(6) It's an intelligent vario and AH. I made it myself! I promise I
will not use it as an AH.

What would you do? Note that no matter what my answer is, you have no
way of verifying it - short of reverse-engineering the device.

Bart


If I was the CD or scorer (and I have been both) I would respond as
follows:

1. Expect to have your altitude trace closely compared against others.
Remember rule 6.1
2. Very nice! See 1
3. Even nicer! See 1
4. See 3
5. Show me your waiver. If no waiver, here is a screwdriver
6. Show me your waiver. If no waiver, here is a screwdriver

QT
  #63  
Old February 9th 12, 08:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Paynter[_2_]
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Posts: 110
Default New Butterfly Vario

On Jan 27, 6:31*pm, Bruno wrote:
I am planning on getting my order in for the Butterfly next week at
the convention so this topic is of great interest. I don't understand
why the instrument needs to be disabled. I agree that it could give a
competitive edge in competition so why not just make sure the igc
records if the artificial horizon feature was used and we are good. *I
would hate to disable an instrument for a contest and then need that
instrument due to a life or death screw up on my part but it is now
disabled.

How about a rules consideration that says if an artificial horizon is
available during a contest that it must be associated with the logger
of the files being used for judging and that a log must be recorded if
that feature is used? *It would still be available if the crap hit the
fan to save the pilot's butt, however if used, the pilot gets zero
points for the day. *Some of the best pilots I know who are also very
safety conscious have confided in me that they have been trapped above
clouds without an artificial horizon and really scared themselves
getting out of it. I for one want the safety of having an instrument
to help me if my life depends on it. I am sure the rules can
accommodate that.

Looking forward to seeing you all next week at the convention.
Bruno - B4


Just to add a bit more fuel to the fire, there is a large body of
evidence on the power side that even *with* an artificial horizon and
turn indicator, the average lifetime for a non-instrument-rated pilot
in clouds is about 3 minutes, and the accident sequences on which this
evidence is based almost invariably start with straight and level
entry into IMC. Anyone who thinks that just installing an artificial
horizon in their glider is a 'get out of jail free' card is fooling
themselves. I urge anyone considering this to get a copy of Condor
(which has a turn indicator installed in most panels) and try their
luck at maintaining any sort of reasonable attitude/airspeed solely by
reference to instruments.

When I owned a Cirrus SR22 power plane some years back, I carried a
GPS-196 (with a GPS-generated artificial horizon and turn coordinator)
with me as a last-ditch backup if all the electrics died. This
worked, but it took quite a bit of practice to be able to stay
reasonably upright using just that instrument.

Just my $0.02

TA
  #64  
Old February 9th 12, 09:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Cliff Hilty[_2_]
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Posts: 50
Default New Butterfly Vario

At 19:15 09 February 2012, Frank Paynter wrote:
On Jan 27, 6:31=A0pm, Bruno wrote:
I am planning on getting my order in for the Butterfly next week at
the convention so this topic is of great interest. I don't understand
why the instrument needs to be disabled. I agree that it could give a
competitive edge in competition so why not just make sure the igc
records if the artificial horizon feature was used and we are good.

=A0I
would hate to disable an instrument for a contest and then need that
instrument due to a life or death screw up on my part but it is now
disabled.

How about a rules consideration that says if an artificial horizon is
available during a contest that it must be associated with the logger
of the files being used for judging and that a log must be recorded if
that feature is used? =A0It would still be available if the crap hit

the
fan to save the pilot's butt, however if used, the pilot gets zero
points for the day. =A0Some of the best pilots I know who are also very
safety conscious have confided in me that they have been trapped above
clouds without an artificial horizon and really scared themselves
getting out of it. I for one want the safety of having an instrument
to help me if my life depends on it. I am sure the rules can
accommodate that.

Looking forward to seeing you all next week at the convention.
Bruno - B4


Just to add a bit more fuel to the fire, there is a large body of
evidence on the power side that even *with* an artificial horizon and
turn indicator, the average lifetime for a non-instrument-rated pilot
in clouds is about 3 minutes, and the accident sequences on which this
evidence is based almost invariably start with straight and level
entry into IMC. Anyone who thinks that just installing an artificial
horizon in their glider is a 'get out of jail free' card is fooling
themselves. I urge anyone considering this to get a copy of Condor
(which has a turn indicator installed in most panels) and try their
luck at maintaining any sort of reasonable attitude/airspeed solely by
reference to instruments.

When I owned a Cirrus SR22 power plane some years back, I carried a
GPS-196 (with a GPS-generated artificial horizon and turn coordinator)
with me as a last-ditch backup if all the electrics died. This
worked, but it took quite a bit of practice to be able to stay
reasonably upright using just that instrument.

Just my $0.02

TA

CH Ventus B

"If we are all "just dust in the wind", then I want to be at the top of a Huge Dust Devil!"

  #65  
Old February 9th 12, 09:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy[_1_]
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Posts: 1,565
Default New Butterfly Vario

On Feb 9, 11:48*am, "John Godfrey (QT)"
wrote:
If I was the CD or scorer (and I have been both) I would respond as
follows:

1. Expect to have your altitude trace closely compared against others.


That can't possibly be a valid test. The first season I had my
ASW-28 I had a convincing win on Day 1 on R9. The reason was that I
found a thermal climb in severe VMC to an altitude several thousand
feet above the best anyone else saw for the day. Similary in a local
club contest, on a day that everyone was struggling to even stay in
the air, one competitor found a huge thermal that enabled a glide to
the first turnpoint and a day win.

There is currently no practical way to ensure a competitor does not
enter cloud. There is currently no practical way to ensure a
competitor does not violate cloud clearance regulations. As long as
that it true competitive pilots will push as close to cloud base are
they think will give a competitive advantage. Some pilots are more
competitive than others but I doubt there is a single pilot on the
West coast that would break off a 10kt climb at 12,000ft because they
estimated that the cloudbase was 13,000ft

Andy (GY)
  #66  
Old February 9th 12, 09:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Cliff Hilty[_2_]
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Posts: 50
Default New Butterfly Vario

John and All, Just for a moment put all the other rule-software-hardware
changes aside, how do you think contest pilots would react to the CD
setting a Max flying height for the day! Just say the weather man forcasts
cloudbase to be 10K msl for the day and the CD announces max flying height
of 9.5k and all logs for that day are checked for max height just as they
are now for 17.5k. Now no advantage to cloud flying, no need to worry about
what instruments we have or don't have.

Sure that weather man may not have it right but we still have a max height
limit regardless. If his estimate is low and cloud base is 2k higher it is
still fair as no one can go higher. If he is too high and cloudbase is
lower we are right where we are now but with todays forcasting abilities he
would not be off that far and it is movable right up until the start gate
opens.

Just sayin---


CH Ventus B

"If we are all "just dust in the wind", then I want to be at the top of a Huge Dust Devil!"

  #67  
Old February 9th 12, 09:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Cliff Hilty[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 50
Default New Butterfly Vario

John and All, Just for a moment put all the other rule-software-hardware
changes aside, how do you think contest pilots would react to the CD
setting a Max flying height for the day! Just say the weather man forcasts
cloudbase to be 10K msl for the day and the CD announces max flying height
of 9.5k and all logs for that day are checked for max height just as they
are now for 17.5k. Now no advantage to cloud flying, no need to worry about
what instruments we have or don't have.

Sure that weather man may not have it right but we still have a max height
limit regardless. If his estimate is low and cloud base is 2k higher it is
still fair as no one can go higher. If he is too high and cloudbase is
lower we are right where we are now but with todays forcasting abilities he
would not be off that far and it is movable right up until the start gate
opens.

Just sayin---


CH Ventus B

"If we are all "just dust in the wind", then I want to be at the top of a Huge Dust Devil!"

  #68  
Old February 9th 12, 09:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
T8
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 429
Default New Butterfly Vario

On Feb 9, 3:28*pm, Cliff Hilty
wrote:
John and All, Just for a moment put all the other rule-software-hardware
changes aside, how do you think contest pilots would react to the CD
setting a Max flying height for the day! Just say the weather man forcasts
cloudbase to be 10K msl for the day and the CD announces max flying height
of 9.5k and all logs for that day are checked for max height just as they
are now for 17.5k. Now no advantage to cloud flying, no need to worry about
what instruments we have or don't have.

Sure that weather man may not have it right but we still have a max height
limit regardless. If his estimate is low and cloud base is 2k higher it is
still fair as no one can go higher. If he is too high and cloudbase is
lower we are right where we are now but with todays forcasting abilities he
would not be off that far and it is movable right up until the start gate
opens.

Just sayin---

CH Ventus B

"If we are all "just dust in the wind", then I want to be at the top of a Huge Dust Devil!"


Not practical in the East, for sure. As well, it doesn't necessarily
solve the problem.

-Evan Ludeman / T8
  #69  
Old February 9th 12, 10:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
T8
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Posts: 429
Default New Butterfly Vario

On Feb 9, 1:17*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:
*Even the "gentleman's agreement" doesn't
work to control this. *I have been in and around enough contests to
see this frequently and (at least after a few beers) most contest
pilots will fess up! *I have seen more than one of the names high on
the ranking list sneaking out of the side of a cumulus!



Then you have a problem. Your options would appear to be peer
pressure or the safety box.

I'm not really a safety monkey (I'd go back to zero height finish
lines in a heartbeat), but I chafe badly when confronted with
borderline suicidal behavior. This is one such instance. I'd be
absolutely ripped if I had a really good day, stayed legal, got beat
by some jackass cloud flying.

-Evan Ludeman / T8
  #70  
Old February 9th 12, 10:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike the Strike
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Posts: 952
Default New Butterfly Vario

On Feb 9, 2:04*pm, T8 wrote:
On Feb 9, 1:17*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:

*Even the "gentleman's agreement" doesn't
work to control this. *I have been in and around enough contests to
see this frequently and (at least after a few beers) most contest
pilots will fess up! *I have seen more than one of the names high on
the ranking list sneaking out of the side of a cumulus!


Then you have a problem. *Your options would appear to be peer
pressure or the safety box.

I'm not really a safety monkey (I'd go back to zero height finish
lines in a heartbeat), but I chafe badly when confronted with
borderline suicidal behavior. *This is one such instance. *I'd be
absolutely ripped if I had a really good day, stayed legal, got beat
by some jackass cloud flying.

-Evan Ludeman / T8


I'll repeat what I said earlier and Andy pointed out a few posts ago -
it's very hard to know when to pull out of a strong thermal as you
approach cloudbase, particularly out west. Most competitive pilots
will go as high as they can, since there is no practical way to
maintain the mandated clearance and no penalty if they do bust it.
Most will go into cloud as an unintended consequence at the top of a
fast climb they held for just one turn too many. This will happen
regardless of whether or not there are cloud-flying instruments.

Many competitors are already breaking the rules on mandated clearance
from clouds and there is no way to monitor this or penalize the
behavior. If you want to prevent it, you are going to have to come up
with a way to monitor it.

As a fellow contest pilot said to me "I'll start worrying when clouds
are shown on igc files"

Mike
 




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