Best Option for Private Pilot to Multi Commercial Instrument Ratings

Probably bad instruction.

3-4 hours of attitude flying instruction at most should be plenty to
provide the skills to enable anyone to move on to navigational work
and procedures.

After all, all navigation/procedural work requires attitude flying, so
you will get plenty of practice and plenty of time over the next 35
hours or so of instruction to fine-tune any minor attitude flying
problems.

Any instructor who requires his instrument student to be perfect in
his attitude flying before moving on is just wasting his student's
money. 13-14 hours of attitude flying before moving on is a waste, if
you ask me (but maybe you're not asking).


On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:38:15 GMT, "C Kingsbury"
wrote:

I guess I was a slow student.

wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:02:14 GMT, "C Kingsbury"
wrote:

One-third of the instrument rating is learning attitude flying- how to
fly
S&L, make turns, climbs, and descents accurate by reference to
instruments
only

13-14 hours to learn how to atttitude fly?

Either you got a slow student or a bad instructor, in my opinion.

On 13 Dec 2004 10:49:32 -0500, (Roy Smith) wrote:

Add in silly maneuvers like steep
turns and more important stuff like partial panel and unusual attitude
recoveries, and it's a lot of work.


Silly maneuvers like steep turns?

There ain't nothing, in my opinion, that sharpens up scanning like
making a steep turn, rolling out to hit a heading and altitude, and
then rolling into one in the other direction, without a significant
loss of altitude.

The steeper the turn, the better your scan had better be.

Now you've made me go and dig out my logbook. My original numbers were based
on guesswork going back two years to when I started working on my rating.

It looks like I spent maybe 5-6 hours primarily doing attitude flying before
moving on to approaches. It took me 60 hours to get ready for my test, which
included several significant breaks of 2-3 months in between lessons in
which much rust built up.

My original estimate of "25%" is attitude flying would really be more
correctly seen as the amount of time that passed before airplane control
started becoming more instinctive. At first I was spending most of my time
chasing the airplane through the maneuvers. I knew what I was supposed to
do, but didn't know how to do it. Later it got to the point that I
understood how things worked, but still had to really think about it.
Somewhere around 40 hours, "how to attitude fly" made it into the lizard
part of my brain and I didn't really have to think about it. To me, this is
the critical point at which moving into a more complex plane will not hurt
the student's progress. Before reaching that point, it seems to me that the
more complex plane would not just cost more money, it would actually retard
progress by overloading the student unnecessarily. I guess it's sort of like
the question of whether it's better for someone to learn to drive first in
an automatic, and learn a stick shift later if necessary.

-cwk.

wrote in message
...
Probably bad instruction.

3-4 hours of attitude flying instruction at most should be plenty to
provide the skills to enable anyone to move on to navigational work
and procedures.

After all, all navigation/procedural work requires attitude flying, so
you will get plenty of practice and plenty of time over the next 35
hours or so of instruction to fine-tune any minor attitude flying
problems.

Any instructor who requires his instrument student to be perfect in
his attitude flying before moving on is just wasting his student's
money. 13-14 hours of attitude flying before moving on is a waste, if
you ask me (but maybe you're not asking).

wrote

Probably bad instruction.

Probably not!

3-4 hours of attitude flying instruction at most should be plenty to
provide the skills to enable anyone to move on to navigational work
and procedures.

My flight school provided 8 hours of simulator basic attitude
flying and 6 hours of aircraft basic attitude flying before
moving on to radio navigation.

Bob Moore
Naval Aviator V-15753
ATP B-727 B-707 L-188
Flight Instructor Airplane, Instrument Airplane
PanAm (retired)

I used to work with a guy who flew B-29's over Japan in the 1940s,
and he told of watching his fighter escorts pop up out of the undercast
in all manner of crazy attitudes, shaking themselves level once in VMC.
He didn't seem to think well of the attitude-flying skills of fighter =
pilots.

wrote in message =
...
Your flight school could afford to overtrain its students.
=20
=20
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:56:55 GMT, Bob Moore
wrote:

My flight school provided 8 hours of simulator basic attitude
flying and 6 hours of aircraft basic attitude flying before
moving on to radio navigation.

Bob Moore
Naval Aviator V-15753
ATP B-727 B-707 L-188
Flight Instructor Airplane, Instrument Airplane
PanAm (retired)

wrote in message
...
Your flight school could afford to overtrain its students.


Red herring. The military has historically moved people from 0TT to jet PIC
in less time than civilian or airline ab-initio programs. The example is all
the more salient considering how picky they are about the students.

-cwk.

"Bob Gardner" writes:

Solo time is required for the commercial certificate, and there is no way in
the world that an insurance company will cover you in a twin without
hundreds of hours of twin time.

Fortunately there are insurance companies outside Mr. Gardner's world. I got
insured with ~60 hours of MEL and have just over 500 now. The place where I
did my MEL training would rent a multi to anyone who got their certificate
there.

Ask someone who knows about insurance. It's gotten tougher but the last
time I looked (for my wife) it was still possible.

--kyler

Solo time is required for the commercial certificate

This is obviously and grossly incorrect.

14CFR61.129(b) For an airplane multiengine rating.
(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours
of flight
time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine
airplane with an
authorized instructor

there is no way in
the world that an insurance company will cover you in a twin without
hundreds of hours of twin time

This is also incorrect. Just recently (about a year ago) someone I
know bought a Twin Comanche to train in. He had NO multi time and NO
instrument rating. The insurance company required that he get the
private or commercial multi prior to solo, 20 hours of dual prior to
solo (all training towards private/commercial counted), and 10 hours
solo prior to carrying passengers. Just about any other twin would
have been easier to insure.

Michael

Bob Moore wrote:

wrote


Probably bad instruction.


Probably not!


3-4 hours of attitude flying instruction at most should be plenty to
provide the skills to enable anyone to move on to navigational work
and procedures.


My flight school provided 8 hours of simulator basic attitude
flying and 6 hours of aircraft basic attitude flying before
moving on to radio navigation.

But must you were weren't a Chuck Yeager clone like mr. nowhwere. :-)

Matt

John R. Copeland wrote:

I used to work with a guy who flew B-29's over Japan in the 1940s,
and he told of watching his fighter escorts pop up out of the undercast
in all manner of crazy attitudes, shaking themselves level once in VMC.
He didn't seem to think well of the attitude-flying skills of fighter pilots.

I dunno, I think being able to fly aeobatics in IMC shows a high level
of skill at attitude flying.


Matt