SENIORS CONTEST

Two gliderscoming in to the finish directly over the
runway. One at about 100 ft and the other at 150 ft.
The one at 150 ft is going about 30 knots faster than
the lower and flies over it just as the lower glider
is pulling up. Lower glider misses the one above by
approx. 5-10 ft. This happened directly in front of
me and probably 10 other people. It was mentioned by
Charlie Spratt at the pilots meeting.
GORDY

"Gordon Schubert" wrote in message
...
Two gliderscoming in to the finish directly over the
runway. One at about 100 ft and the other at 150 ft.
The one at 150 ft is going about 30 knots faster than
the lower and flies over it just as the lower glider
is pulling up. Lower glider misses the one above by
approx. 5-10 ft. This happened directly in front of
me and probably 10 other people. It was mentioned by
Charlie Spratt at the pilots meeting.
GORDY

This brings up a point that I had not thought of......in a gate finish it is
possible to call others on the radio to report seeing them or to say that
you are "to the left side of the gate" or to say that you are overtaking
them and above, since it is in a focused area. With a cylinder finish there
is no way to really do this unless you see them directly. With numerous
finishes at the same time how would one report your position...."KC is on
the 240 radial to the finish center 4 miles out at 810 feet"??? I can hear
all of those type fixes being reported at a nationals with 30 finishes in 5
minutes. Oh ya.

Re the specific incident you report.....once again it was poor judgement and
pilotage on the overtaking pilots part. If the pilot that was being
overtaken called in at 4 miles prior to the other then it is the following
gliders responsiblity to locate him and if he does not see him then it is
his responsibility to report that. This is no different than what occurs at
nearly every controlled airport in the nation hourly. A gate at least
allows meaningful position fixes vs. the cylinder finish.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

This is a classic example of two gliders flying in
the other pilots 'blind spot'. Lower pilot can't see
above and behind, higher pilot can't see below and
in front, because the nose of his ship blocks his view
in this area. Both ships heades for the same point
in space. Some have reffered to this as a 'scheduled
mid-air', same point (GPS coordinates of gate), same
altitude (50 feet), the only remaining variable is
the timing of the event. Looks like the it was almost
perfect on this one. Come on guys, there is a better
way.
JJ Sinclair

At 04:30 16 March 2005, Gordon Schubert wrote:
Two gliderscoming in to the finish directly over the
runway. One at about 100 ft and the other at 150 ft.
The one at 150 ft is going about 30 knots faster than
the lower and flies over it just as the lower glider
is pulling up. Lower glider misses the one above by
approx. 5-10 ft. This happened directly in front of
me and probably 10 other people. It was mentioned by
Charlie Spratt at the pilots meeting.
GORDY

Finish gates without radio procedures are indeed a quite dumb thing to do.
I'd call that Darwin...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"John Sinclair" a écrit dans le
message de news: ...
This is a classic example of two gliders flying in
the other pilots 'blind spot'. Lower pilot can't see
above and behind, higher pilot can't see below and
in front, because the nose of his ship blocks his view
in this area. Both ships heades for the same point
in space. Some have reffered to this as a 'scheduled
mid-air', same point (GPS coordinates of gate), same
altitude (50 feet), the only remaining variable is
the timing of the event. Looks like the it was almost
perfect on this one. Come on guys, there is a better
way.
JJ Sinclair

At 04:30 16 March 2005, Gordon Schubert wrote:
Two gliderscoming in to the finish directly over the
runway. One at about 100 ft and the other at 150 ft.
The one at 150 ft is going about 30 knots faster than
the lower and flies over it just as the lower glider
is pulling up. Lower glider misses the one above by
approx. 5-10 ft. This happened directly in front of
me and probably 10 other people. It was mentioned by
Charlie Spratt at the pilots meeting.
GORDY

Were these two guys using the radio at all? Why weren't they aware of each
other?
I can't imagine anyone doing a finish without announcing, how did this
happen?


"Bert Willing" wrote in
message ...
Finish gates without radio procedures are indeed a quite dumb thing to do.
I'd call that Darwin...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"John Sinclair" a écrit dans le
message de news: ...
This is a classic example of two gliders flying in
the other pilots 'blind spot'. Lower pilot can't see
above and behind, higher pilot can't see below and
in front, because the nose of his ship blocks his view
in this area. Both ships heades for the same point
in space. Some have reffered to this as a 'scheduled
mid-air', same point (GPS coordinates of gate), same
altitude (50 feet), the only remaining variable is
the timing of the event. Looks like the it was almost
perfect on this one. Come on guys, there is a better
way.
JJ Sinclair

At 04:30 16 March 2005, Gordon Schubert wrote:
Two gliderscoming in to the finish directly over the
runway. One at about 100 ft and the other at 150 ft.
The one at 150 ft is going about 30 knots faster than
the lower and flies over it just as the lower glider
is pulling up. Lower glider misses the one above by
approx. 5-10 ft. This happened directly in front of
me and probably 10 other people. It was mentioned by
Charlie Spratt at the pilots meeting.
GORDY

And did no one on the ground have a radio and see this developing?

Gary

"Gary Boggs" wrote in message
...
Were these two guys using the radio at all? Why weren't they aware of
each other?
I can't imagine anyone doing a finish without announcing, how did this
happen?


"Bert Willing" wrote in
message ...
Finish gates without radio procedures are indeed a quite dumb thing to
do. I'd call that Darwin...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"John Sinclair" a écrit dans le
message de news: ...
This is a classic example of two gliders flying in
the other pilots 'blind spot'. Lower pilot can't see
above and behind, higher pilot can't see below and
in front, because the nose of his ship blocks his view
in this area. Both ships heades for the same point
in space. Some have reffered to this as a 'scheduled
mid-air', same point (GPS coordinates of gate), same
altitude (50 feet), the only remaining variable is
the timing of the event. Looks like the it was almost
perfect on this one. Come on guys, there is a better
way.
JJ Sinclair

At 04:30 16 March 2005, Gordon Schubert wrote:
Two gliderscoming in to the finish directly over the
runway. One at about 100 ft and the other at 150 ft.
The one at 150 ft is going about 30 knots faster than
the lower and flies over it just as the lower glider
is pulling up. Lower glider misses the one above by
approx. 5-10 ft. This happened directly in front of
me and probably 10 other people. It was mentioned by
Charlie Spratt at the pilots meeting.
GORDY

Yes, how did this happen? I have flown in several Seniors, and radio
discipline is usually quite good!
Just guessing (I know, bad!), one of them had to fail to switch from "crew"
123.5 to "gate" 123.3--So each announces and does not hear the other because
they are on different frequencies.
The overtake speed differential is small enough to keep them in the blind
spot a long time.

--
Hartley Falbaum
ASW27B "KF" USA


"Gary Boggs" wrote in message
...
Were these two guys using the radio at all? Why weren't they aware of
each other?
I can't imagine anyone doing a finish without announcing, how did this
happen?


"Bert Willing" wrote in
message ...
Finish gates without radio procedures are indeed a quite dumb thing to
do. I'd call that Darwin...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"John Sinclair" a écrit dans le
message de news: ...
This is a classic example of two gliders flying in
the other pilots 'blind spot'. Lower pilot can't see
above and behind, higher pilot can't see below and
in front, because the nose of his ship blocks his view
in this area. Both ships heades for the same point
in space. Some have reffered to this as a 'scheduled
mid-air', same point (GPS coordinates of gate), same
altitude (50 feet), the only remaining variable is
the timing of the event. Looks like the it was almost
perfect on this one. Come on guys, there is a better
way.
JJ Sinclair

At 04:30 16 March 2005, Gordon Schubert wrote:
Two gliderscoming in to the finish directly over the
runway. One at about 100 ft and the other at 150 ft.
The one at 150 ft is going about 30 knots faster than
the lower and flies over it just as the lower glider
is pulling up. Lower glider misses the one above by
approx. 5-10 ft. This happened directly in front of
me and probably 10 other people. It was mentioned by
Charlie Spratt at the pilots meeting.
GORDY

Casey, Casey, Casey,

Does the word 'denial' mean anything to you? I make
it 5 accidents in the Neanderthal gate, but they were
all caused by 'poor judgement' and or 'poor pilotage',
right?

Tell me something, how does this near mid-air at the
Seniors, differ from the ASK-21 that pulled up into
the Cub at Turf, resulting in the tragic loss of 4
people? They were both flying in each others blind
spot. One pulled up (starting a loop) and hit the Piper
Cub on down-wind. Doesn't count, right? Didn't happen
in a contest.

I'll say it again, there is a better way. Why don't
we drop, once and for all, this Neanderthal Gate and
go with the proven finish cylinder to score all our
races?

JJ Sinclair (Wuss)

Re the specific incident you report.....once again
it was poor judgement and
pilotage on the overtaking pilots part. If the pilot
that was being
overtaken called in at 4 miles prior to the other then
it is the following
gliders responsiblity to locate him and if he does
not see him then it is
his responsibility to report that. This is no different
than what occurs at
nearly every controlled airport in the nation hourly.
A gate at least
allows meaningful position fixes vs. the cylinder finish.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

Take a look at the responses here....most are wanting to know why the radio
wasn't used to avoid this conflict. I'll repeat the idea that the radio is
only useful when you have some way of identifying your position relative to
other pilots. That is easy with the finish gate. Explain to me how you
could tell another pilot where you are if you just heard them call 4 miles
and you are at the same distance but do not see them with a cylinder finish.
Landmarks don't help...you're too high. Distance from the edge or center
doesn't help...you could be on a collision course anywhere along the way
since you are most likely on differing tangents but both headed toward the
runway.

Your facts are incorrect re the Turf midair. For the record the glider was
in an established acro box on the downside of a loop and the Cub was on a
downwind through the middle of the box which he knew was hot during a lot of
the day. Your using this to support your point is lost on me since I would
argue the opposite or that it at very least that it has nothing to do with
this thread. An analogous situation with the contest gate finish would be
that they would both have been entering downwind, called it on the radio and
if getting a no joy would have kept talking until they did.

Let's try this.....the parcel of cubic atmosphere that a glider might be in
when calling a finish with the cylinder is many fold greater than that with
the gate. That allows many more possibilities for unseen conflicts and
fewer possibilities for being able to identify where you are in relationship
to the other folks. OK you math guys.....help me out with some
numbers....you out there 9B?!

You should have been a politician with your Neanderthal comments and use of
hyperbole JJ. When your argument has no basis in fact that is all that's
left I suppose. Re the denial....what is it that you don't get about some
of those stall spins being unrelated to contests or are you now going to
attribute all stall spin accidents to gate finishes?

This is a good and useful discussion but please let's keep it to the facts
and not get so emotional about it.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

At 02:30 17 March 2005, Kilo Charlie wrote:
OK you math guys.....help me out with some
numbers....you out there 9B?!


Go get 'em Casey - grrrr...

...I'm covering the Neanderthal thread. Check it out,
I just folded the 15-minute rule into the discussion
- it'll be hypergolic!

(BTW, I'm inclined to agree with you - for years I
knew where to look when someone called 'four miles'
or got a 'mark' on finishing - now I still look but
odd's are I won't see anyone - particularly on MATs,
so on I go in the blind.

I remember Marine ground attack pilots telling me about
dropping bombs on targets at the same time as incoming
artillery. They called it 'big sky, little bullet'
- this seems like the same doctrine. If the cylinder
is big enough the odds are reduced than any two random
gliders will run into each other, but the price you
pay is making it harder to see and avoid each other
if you do end up on converging courses. Hard to prove
the math of it - too many possible combinations.)

9B