A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Flarm suppression of ADS-B out on Tow Planes



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old March 21st 19, 02:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charles Longley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 290
Default Flarm suppression of ADS-B out on Tow Planes

All good points!

I fly out of Arlington, WA about half the time. It can be a F-ing zoo! Every type of airplane you can think of at an uncontrolled airport.

The cost of install between the skyBeacon and ESG/ESGi is significant. $180 for the skyBeacon and $1200 to $1500 for the ESGi. I don’t recommend doing the ESG even if you have a portable ADS-B in/AHRS device. For an extra $500 with the ESGi you get it all hardwired and out of sight.

A renter couldn’t mess with the skyBeacon as it’s password protected. Interestingly you can turn the Nav and strobe light off on the ground with the app. (Found that out the hard way.)
  #22  
Old March 21st 19, 06:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 317
Default Flarm suppression of ADS-B out on Tow Planes

Thread drift warning I installed a Skybeacon on our 170B. It has a tow hook but with only the 0-300 in it we dont tow with it. I primarily use it for weekly commute to my property about 100 miles away.

It was by far the simplest install and the only cost is the 337 paperwork, and a friend IA did that for me. We arent planning on flying in controlled airspace or out of the country so couldn't justify the higher expense of 1080es and replacing the AT150 transponder. I know of many that have and are going the skybeacon route.

CH
  #23  
Old March 22nd 19, 02:18 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 601
Default Flarm suppression of ADS-B out on Tow Planes

I understand powerflarm does not detect UAT due to hardware limitation. It would be great if powerflarm would provide an upgrade path to receive UAT, giving that UAT seem to get more and more popular in USA GA thanks to skybeacon. Even an exchange program will do.

Ramy
  #24  
Old March 22nd 19, 03:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike Schumann[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 177
Default Flarm suppression of ADS-B out on Tow Planes

On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 9:18:36 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
I understand powerflarm does not detect UAT due to hardware limitation. It would be great if powerflarm would provide an upgrade path to receive UAT, giving that UAT seem to get more and more popular in USA GA thanks to skybeacon. Even an exchange program will do.

Ramy


The simplest option would be for PowerFlarm to utilize an off the shelf dual band ADS-B receiver like the pingUSB (https://uavionix.com/products/pingusb/) for the ADS-B IN capability and merge that data with the internally received FLARM information. The pingUSB sells for $175 and supports ADS-R and TIS-B.
  #25  
Old March 22nd 19, 04:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 27
Default Flarm suppression of ADS-B out on Tow Planes

On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 7:49:14 PM UTC-7, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 9:18:36 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
I understand powerflarm does not detect UAT due to hardware limitation. It would be great if powerflarm would provide an upgrade path to receive UAT, giving that UAT seem to get more and more popular in USA GA thanks to skybeacon. Even an exchange program will do.

Ramy


The simplest option would be for PowerFlarm to utilize an off the shelf dual band ADS-B receiver like the pingUSB (https://uavionix.com/products/pingusb/) for the ADS-B IN capability and merge that data with the internally received FLARM information. The pingUSB sells for $175 and supports ADS-R and TIS-B.


I have corresponded with Flarm and LX nav. Per the copied messages and still waiting for a reply from LX Navigation, The new OEM chip from Flarm support the things you are asking for. Flarm is not currently offering their own solution for consumers but may in the future. LX Nav is doing some of the support but not using the Flarm chip that does it all, so must have some proprietary implementation and don't appear to support TIS-R. LX Navigation is using Flarm's new chip but has been unresponsive to my inquiries.


My message to Flarm::
I live and fly in the USA. Are you planning to come out with a new product that incorporates your new oem chip with ADS-B, Mode-S, ADS-R and TIS-B receiver at 1090 MHz? and also the Mode C and S PCAS capabilities?

I have communicated with LX Nav and they indicated they are not implementing TIS-B. LX Navigation tells it's dealer here in the USA that they are implementing TIS-B and ADSB-R. But give no availability information. They have not responded to my inquiries.

Any insight you can provide me would be appreciated. I am currently using a PortableFlarm. but will need to give that up when I sell my old glider and would like to get the latest for the new(to me) motorglider.

Bruce

And their reply::

Hi Bruce

That's correct: LX Navigation has implemented the required hardware and will see support for TIS-R and ADS-R after the software upgrade, likely in summer 2019.

- Urban

Also in another message they indicated that they will not be supporting UAT..

Bruce BD
  #26  
Old March 22nd 19, 08:44 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 601
Default Flarm suppression of ADS-B out on Tow Planes

This sounds like an interesting possibility as the powerflarm core has a USB port. I’ll let Darryl analyze it...

Ramy
  #27  
Old March 22nd 19, 06:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JS[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 624
Default Flarm suppression of ADS-B out on Tow Planes

On Friday, March 22, 2019 at 12:44:48 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
This sounds like an interesting possibility as the powerflarm core has a USB port. I’ll let Darryl analyze it...

Ramy


LXNav is waiting for FCC approval for the PowerMouse, which uses the new chip. Updates will probably come after that.
Jim
  #28  
Old March 22nd 19, 07:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 546
Default Flarm suppression of ADS-B out on Tow Planes

On 3/22/19 1:44 AM, Ramy wrote:
This sounds like an interesting possibility as the powerflarm core has a USB port. I’ll let Darryl analyze it...

Ramy


The PingUSB just uses USB for power, data goes out over Wi-Fi, typically
to a tablet.
  #29  
Old March 22nd 19, 07:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,403
Default Flarm suppression of ADS-B out on Tow Planes

On Friday, March 22, 2019 at 10:13:51 AM UTC-7, JS wrote:
On Friday, March 22, 2019 at 12:44:48 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
This sounds like an interesting possibility as the powerflarm core has a USB port. I’ll let Darryl analyze it...

Ramy


LXNav is waiting for FCC approval for the PowerMouse, which uses the new chip. Updates will probably come after that.
Jim


I think it would be great to see ADS-R and maybe TIS-B support in FLARM devices.

FLARM has two chips and associated software currently available to OEMs, the actual FLARM chip and a new 1090ES In chip. The new 1090ES In chip is different than what is used in PowerFLARM.

Unfortunately (and this confused me in the past as well) the LXNav PowerMouse does *not* use the new FLARM 1090ES In developed chip, it uses their own developed technology in conjunction with the FLARM chip. The LX Navigation Eagle *does* use the new FLARM 1090ES In and FLARM chips.

I say unfortunately as this may create differences in how these otherwise similar products operate. I guess we'll have to wait and see. Personally I would rather all this technology came from FLARM and all OEM products operate identically. LXNav clearly makes great products so maybe they'll pull this off OK, buy I am concerned that their decision to roll their own stuff here may not have been the best decision.

This stuff is not as simple as "just support xyz protocol", there are for example going to be devil is in the details of different $PFLAU and $PFLAA FLARM warnings being generated for ADS-B direct, ADS-R and TIS-B traffic. There are also operational things that can help improve ease of use and safety that I'd hope vendors implement (from understandable documentation about what TIS-B and ADS-R support there is and the implications of that to say the receiver detecting and warning if the own-ship 1090ES Out does not exist or is not transmitting the capability code for 1090ES In).

A FLARM device comes with more than usual ADS-B In traffic receiver capabilities, the precise traffic warmings, relatively low false alarm rate, ability to operate on tow or in a gaggle etc. The positional accuracy of ADS-R and TIS-B is less than ADS-B Direct, or FLARM and in the case of TIS-B the positional error is much more. So adding extra ADS-R and TIS-B data comes with some challenges, not insurmountable, but this likely needs to be done with a good technical understanding of both the FLARM traffic algorithms, and understanding of how ADS-R and TIS-B works in practice in the USA.

I hope vendors have been testing this stuff in a realistic simulated USA ADS-B/TIS-B/ADS-R environment before any USA product release, and that they explain implications of what what they implement for ADS-R and especially TIS-B (if supported) to users. (Don't forget for reliable operation both ADS-R and TIS-B require your aircraft to have TABS or 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out).

BTW technical aside... be careful when talking about "TIS-B" especially in more technical conversations with vendors. TIS-B can refer to the relay of SSR data from ground stations over ADS-B as implemented in the USA today (as I used it above). But to a more technical person TIS-B may also mean the general data message format used for both that FAA TIS-B and ADS-R services, for example if an engineer is reading the RTCA DO-260B standard they would implement support for the TIS-B message format to receive ADS-R data and might talk about that as "TIS-B support".

  #30  
Old March 22nd 19, 09:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,403
Default Flarm suppression of ADS-B out on Tow Planes

On Friday, March 22, 2019 at 11:04:34 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
On 3/22/19 1:44 AM, Ramy wrote:
This sounds like an interesting possibility as the powerflarm core has a USB port. I’ll let Darryl analyze it...

Ramy


The PingUSB just uses USB for power, data goes out over Wi-Fi, typically
to a tablet.


Right. And a third party MUX box that can receive that WiFi could merge it with FLARM serial data. But ah if the data is lower-resolution ADS-R or TIS-B targets does that MUX take it upon itself to generate FLARM $PFLAU target messages? Can it even tell what the source of the data is? Does it assign higher $PFLAU priority that FLARM targets? Does it rewrite existing FLARM generated $PFLAU messages? How does the behavior of those algorithms compare to FLARM's proprietary implementation? Does it only generate $PFLAA messages for this other traffic? That may be OK but what happens when a target gets close and the user does not get the high-priority FLARM warning they might otherwise expect? How will different FLARM displays handle any strangeness here?

Again it depends on what you are trying to achieve. The GDL-90 protocol serial data provided by most of these ADS-B out devices does not contain all the information you would want to build the most comprehensive integrated FLARM and ADS-B In system. You can provide coarse traffic information akin to what ADS-B In systems do today, and that may be fine but there are critters hiding below the surface of the swamp even there. It's possible to provide better integration if working on the "other side" of the interface, e.g. before the information is tuned into GDL-90 serial data, and that's a benefit of say the approach taken with the FLARM provided FLARM chipset and 1090ES receiver chip. That unfortunately does not get you UAT-direct. I just can't imagine there is a way for FLARM to invest time in UAT hardware for the small USA glider community.

I am glad some progress is being made but just want to caution not all this stuff is a simple as it might seem (Hi Andy :-)) . If it was we'd likely have stuff doing this today.


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
trying to work out how you connect the flarm view 57 to mini box flarm running a V7 and Oudie Michael Marshall[_2_] Soaring 3 April 10th 16 04:13 AM
trying to work out how you connect the flarm view 57 to mini box flarm running a V7 and Oudie Michael Marshall[_2_] Soaring 0 April 8th 16 08:57 PM
Information for all users of Flarm, OEM FLARM supplier and Flarm PowerFlarm [email protected] Soaring 28 March 12th 16 05:31 AM
Flarm IGC files on non-IGC certified Flarm? Movses Soaring 21 March 16th 15 10:59 PM
Military Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD): Assessing Future Needs Mike Naval Aviation 0 December 12th 05 05:35 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.