Owning more expensive than renting

wrote in message
news:Qx1xd.2733$tG3.1799@trnddc02...

My two co-owners and I recently tried to calculate the actual per-hour
cost
to fly our Arrow IV. At our current annual usage of around 170 hours,
this
number came to just under $100/hr (tach time), which is well below what an
Arrow would rent for in this area. We thought we were doing pretty well,
especially since we pay the extra cost to keep our plane hangared (which
is
rare for rental planes around here).

Using a rental aircraft for business flying is tenuous at best.

IAC, I calculate that my B36TC runs $165 an hour for everything -- 430 hours
in the past 12 months including hanger fees of $3000 annually. One big
factor is your location; it's going to be much more expensive in an
expensive town/city/state.

I don't recall EVER seeing a B36TC for rental. Also, when we need to travel
its often (about 1/3 of our flights) on an hours notice.

Lastly. one thing missing in many rentals is the ability to do a RON.


Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"PaulaJay1" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Vaughn" writes:

I find walking out to a rental airplane that someone else has already
washed, fueled, fixed, annualed, etc. etc. etc. pretty damn convenient.
There
are two sides to every story.

And perhaps landed HARD and had trouble with one of the instruments and
choose
not to say anything.

There's a reason rental CARS are not kept very long: multiple drivers wear
them out much more quickly and DO NOT drive them like they would their own.
:~)


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

Why would anybody pay good money to watch somebody hit a golf ball in a left
turning arc?

Jim



I gave up hookers the cost of 1 hooker a month is 5 to 8 hours of flying
I
would rather be flying

ah ha... and at $110 an hour, that's what I pay for a rental Arrow, granted
the Deb is better than the Arrow.

Does your cost include the "engine replacement fund" you are paying into, or
the "avionics replacement fun"? Based on a generous 2000 hr TBO, and a now
almost $25-30K expense for a new engine, at least $10/hr or maybe even
12-25/hr should be allotted for the engine fund.

Unless you want to just have to come up with the cash when you need it, the
cost still factors into the "operating cost" over all, whether in actual
expense or depreciated value for a used up engine.

I'll agree that the 400hr estimate was when rentals were running closer to
$65-80/hr instead of the current $110 for the Arrow. I paid $18/hr for
flight training in a C-150 II Commuter, 30yrs ago.
Those 150s now rent for $50-60 per hour. The Bonanza that used to be
available was $160/hr and the Twin Seneca IIs are currently $180-200 /hr.

BT

"Roger" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 08:42:47 -0800, "BTIZ"
wrote:

a study at one time showed that the break even point for most light
singles.. was closer to 400 hours per year

That sure sounds high.
Flying 130 hours a year in a Debonair was running me around $79/hour
including ALL costs. That includes an unexpected top.

Adding a 3-blade Hartzell brought the costs up into the $90 range over
about 7 years. So, I've been flying a 260HP, high
performance/complex/retract for about the same as they rent a 172.

However, I have not flown nearly as much the last couple of years
which is rapidly offsetting those savings. Currently it's running a
bit over $110 USD/hr.


Fixed costs per hour get reduce with more hours flown, insurance,
hanger/tiedown, financing (financing also includes cost of $ lost if not
invested elsewhere).

In that case I made/saved a *lot* money by purchasing the Deb as this
was during the Dot Com bust and that cost me far more than the Deb
including the operating costs.

It "all depends" on the amount of maintenance and upgrades as well as
the hours flown. There is no figure set-in-stone but for normal
expenses it's probably going to be in the 100 to 150 hour range. A
good portion of that can come from interest on the financing.

You may, or may not use *potential* investment gains as not everyone
is an active investor. If they are not an investor and have to borrow
the money the investment losses would not count. Besides, counting
investment losses from money you didn't invest is sorta, like, coulda,
shoulda, woulda.... It's imaginary. Just like I made money today
because the market went up. I didn't make or lose a cent
because I didn't sell. There are only two days that mean anything
when you are investing. The day you purchase the stock and the day
you sell the stock. You could have purchased it for a buck, it could
have gone to a 100,000 and back to two bucks on the day you sell. You
made a dollar.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


Variable costs, fuel, engine maint fund, oil, replaceable items like tires
etc, does not necessarily vary with additional hours flown.

BT

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:ODWwd.591568$D%.397211@attbi_s51...
Well I have only been an airplane owner for a few months but so far
owning is more expensive than renting. I must say that the convenience
of
having your own airplane to go to when ever you want is worth a few
bucks. Has anyone found owning more expensive than renting? :-)

Owning is always more expensive than renting, until you get to a high
number of hours flown annually.

The old "100 hours per year break-even point" is about right -- until
you
do a major interior upgrade, or replace a cylinder. Than *poof* --
renting looks mighty fine. I'd bet the "real" break-even point (over
time) is closer to 150 hours per year.

But you're right -- owning is worth every penny.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I find walking out to a rental airplane that someone else has already
washed, fueled, fixed, annualed, etc. etc. etc. pretty damn convenient.
There
are two sides to every story.

Wow -- the rental planes I used to fly we

a) Clapped out
b) Unwashed -- for years
c) Rarely fueled by anyone except me
d) Had lots of things wrong -- or, at least, not quite right

And if it was hangared (few were), I had to drag the thing out of a group
hangar from behind a couple of other planes.

There is nothing about renting that I miss -- except at annual time.

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On 18-Dec-2004, "Matt Barrow" wrote:

Using a rental aircraft for business flying is tenuous at best.


You got that right!!
--
-Elliott Drucker

On 18-Dec-2004, "Dude" wrote:

Please send instructions on finding that safe 6% please.


Well, "safe" is a relative term, but you might check out ticker symbol WIA.

Actually, compared to the market in general over the Bush years, airplane
appreciation (or at least lack of depreciation) looks like a pretty good
deal.
--
-Elliott Drucker

Speaking of washing planes. How do you get your plane washed in the
winter? Mine could use it and I have no idea what to do. Thanks!!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Dirty Mooney Owner


Jay Honeck wrote:

I find walking out to a rental airplane that someone else has already
washed, fueled, fixed, annualed, etc. etc. etc. pretty damn convenient.
There
are two sides to every story.


Wow -- the rental planes I used to fly we

a) Clapped out
b) Unwashed -- for years
c) Rarely fueled by anyone except me
d) Had lots of things wrong -- or, at least, not quite right

And if it was hangared (few were), I had to drag the thing out of a group
hangar from behind a couple of other planes.

There is nothing about renting that I miss -- except at annual time.

;-)

I have rented / owned / owned and rented / leased / borrowed (never
stole though / airplanes my entire adult life... I could teach an
entire PhD course in the uneconomics of airplanes... Among the several
things I have learned along the way is that owning is more expensive
than renting - period! There will be the occasional bright guy, like
Roger, who can make the numbers work out in favor of owning - I have
never been able to make that happen...

But, renting affects me... Every time I have flown a rented airplane I
am concious of the Hobbs meter running... It affects my decision
making... If I am on the way somewhere and the thought comes up, "Gee
if I deviate a half hour to the West we can fly over the St. Louis arch
(or some such)... In a rented plane it doesn't happen because both
conciously and subconciously I can see that &*^$@# meter running... In
my own airplane, it's a slam dunk - we ARE going to fly over the arch
(or whatever)... I will drive 20 miles out to the airport just to make
two circuits around the field with crosswind landings, 20 minutes of
flying just for fun... I won't do that in a rented airplane... I will
go to the airport on a really bad weather morning just to vacuum the
carpet and polish the spinner... I won't do that in a rented
airplane... I will go to the airport at 2AM just to go fly lazy
circles for 40 minutes to look at the moon and the stars (stress
relief)... I won't do that in a rented airplane... I wll arrange a 3
day weekend to fly down to Florida and sit on the beach for a day... I
won't do that in a rented airplane...

Bottom line "for me" is that I have to own... For you it may be
different... I would urge those who rent to consider a club ownership,
or a partnership deal... Owning makes a huge difference in how you see
the airplane and in how you use it... How many of you would consider
renting your car? Not many... But for those who have cars on lease,
how many of you are always concious of the miles accumulating on trips?
Every one of you, I bet, because going over mileage on the lease
contract carries a big $$ penalty..

Cheers ... Denny

Re, I keep the flight logs in the plane (the aircraft logs NOT). But
they are my logs, I'll keep em where I damn well please.