Owning more expensive than renting

Speaking of washing planes. How do you get your plane washed in the
winter? Mine could use it and I have no idea what to do.

I *never* wash my planes (or motorcycles) with soap and water. Everything
is done with Lemon Pledge and cloth diapers.

Unfortunately they no longer make pump-spray Pledge, and the aerosol stuff
is just not right. (It comes out in a foam, instead of liquid.)

Luckily, I bought 6 cases of the stuff before they stopped making it -- so
I'm good for a few more years. ;-)

Anyway, Pledge works on any above-freezing day. The paint looks new, and so
does the plexiglass. I haven't had to find a substitute yet, so if anyone
finds an equally economical solution, please post it here.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Curious as to why no soap and water. The paint is probably some
polyeurethane (Imron etc...) so it wouldn't be hurt. JK

Jay Honeck wrote:

Speaking of washing planes. How do you get your plane washed in the
winter? Mine could use it and I have no idea what to do.


I *never* wash my planes (or motorcycles) with soap and water. Everything
is done with Lemon Pledge and cloth diapers.

Unfortunately they no longer make pump-spray Pledge, and the aerosol stuff
is just not right. (It comes out in a foam, instead of liquid.)

Luckily, I bought 6 cases of the stuff before they stopped making it -- so
I'm good for a few more years. ;-)

Anyway, Pledge works on any above-freezing day. The paint looks new, and so
does the plexiglass. I haven't had to find a substitute yet, so if anyone
finds an equally economical solution, please post it here.

On 19 Dec 2004 06:02:40 -0800, "Denny" wrote:

I have rented / owned / owned and rented / leased / borrowed (never
stole though / airplanes my entire adult life... I could teach an
entire PhD course in the uneconomics of airplanes...

Good one, I'd never heard the term ueconomics before.

things I have learned along the way is that owning is more expensive
than renting - period!

I have been fortunate, my ownership costs have been around $68/hr for
a Cherokee 180, but this is not including engine overhaul reserve,
aircraft depreciation due to increased TTAF, the new paint job,
avionics updates, Knots2U mods, opportunity cost of money, and the
countless hours I've spent working on the plane (which I enjoy).

A nice Cherokee 180 or early Archer rents for ~$90 wet in Chicago
area, so there's no way I'm coming out ahead. On the other hand,
that's not why I own.

This is for ~200hrs / year of flying.

-Nathan

"Denny" wrote in message
ups.com...
I have rented / owned / owned and rented / leased / borrowed (never
stole though / airplanes my entire adult life... I could teach an
entire PhD course in the uneconomics of airplanes... Among the several
things I have learned along the way is that owning is more expensive
than renting - period! There will be the occasional bright guy, like
Roger, who can make the numbers work out in favor of owning - I have
never been able to make that happen...


Let's have a show of hands from all those who drive a Hertz (okay...Budget)
rental car instead of your owned/leased vehicle?

Anyone? Anyone at all?

The economics and justifications are the same -- UTILIZATION and frequency.

If we drove once every six months using Hertz might make sense.

Way too many people use aircraft for pleasure or marginally "profitable"
business. If you make $25-50 an hour, you can't justify too much for flying
expenses, or if you make $200 an hour, but only for a day or so.

When I started my business back in 1996, I tried using rentals while getting
the business started. It worked, but was very constricting. In the first
year I got a T182, then a T210, then four years ago a B36TC. I started with
a radius of business of 150 miles, then 300 and now I go from Great Falls
down to North Texas, from SLC east to Omaha. I build houses and usually
never more than ten in any one town, usually smaller towns. I couldn't do
that with rentals or airlines/commuters. The aircraft I owned never cost me
more than about $85,000 a year (everything included), but enabled us to
build the company into a $4.5M business. As I mentioned in another post,
what I use/"am looking for next", don't come on the rental market.

Now I'm looking for all weather capability, thinking of a turbo-prop. We're
putting together two projects to build a total 55 houses in two
towns....more than we now build in a year. Budget looks like $9.75M. There's
usually three or four of us that have to travel together, 550nm and 600nm .
Any suggestions?

Too many people let their ego get in the way of making a sound justification
for an aircraft purchase. The economics don't pan out unless you can have
the tax man help you,


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 20:02:42 -0800, "BTIZ"
wrote:

ah ha... and at $110 an hour, that's what I pay for a rental Arrow, granted
the Deb is better than the Arrow.

Does your cost include the "engine replacement fund" you are paying into, or

Yup

the "avionics replacement fun"? Based on a generous 2000 hr TBO, and a now

2000? I wish. The IO-470N is only 1700

almost $25-30K expense for a new engine, at least $10/hr or maybe even
12-25/hr should be allotted for the engine fund.

Unless you want to just have to come up with the cash when you need it, the
cost still factors into the "operating cost" over all, whether in actual
expense or depreciated value for a used up engine.

The big difference is I probably pay much less for a hanger than most
and I have no interest payments.
I use a progressive maintenance program, but the plane has been
relatively trouble free.

Hanger runs $125/Mo I toss in a dollar a day when using the engine
heater.


I'll agree that the 400hr estimate was when rentals were running closer to
$65-80/hr instead of the current $110 for the Arrow. I paid $18/hr for
flight training in a C-150 II Commuter, 30yrs ago.

That much? I was paying $6/Hr for a Piper Colt ...Wet. :-))
You could fly all day on less than $50. Of course you could fly all
day and not go anywhere either. Now, there was a forgiving airplane.
Nothing worked on it but the engine and controls, but it was
forgiving.

Those 150s now rent for $50-60 per hour. The Bonanza that used to be
available was $160/hr and the Twin Seneca IIs are currently $180-200 /hr.

I remember the V-tail they had was $16/Hr

Hmmm...come to think of it, that was 41 years ago.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

BT

"Roger" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 08:42:47 -0800, "BTIZ"
wrote:

a study at one time showed that the break even point for most light
singles.. was closer to 400 hours per year

That sure sounds high.
Flying 130 hours a year in a Debonair was running me around $79/hour
including ALL costs. That includes an unexpected top.

Adding a 3-blade Hartzell brought the costs up into the $90 range over
about 7 years. So, I've been flying a 260HP, high
performance/complex/retract for about the same as they rent a 172.

However, I have not flown nearly as much the last couple of years
which is rapidly offsetting those savings. Currently it's running a
bit over $110 USD/hr.


Fixed costs per hour get reduce with more hours flown, insurance,
hanger/tiedown, financing (financing also includes cost of $ lost if not
invested elsewhere).

In that case I made/saved a *lot* money by purchasing the Deb as this
was during the Dot Com bust and that cost me far more than the Deb
including the operating costs.

It "all depends" on the amount of maintenance and upgrades as well as
the hours flown. There is no figure set-in-stone but for normal
expenses it's probably going to be in the 100 to 150 hour range. A
good portion of that can come from interest on the financing.

You may, or may not use *potential* investment gains as not everyone
is an active investor. If they are not an investor and have to borrow
the money the investment losses would not count. Besides, counting
investment losses from money you didn't invest is sorta, like, coulda,
shoulda, woulda.... It's imaginary. Just like I made money today
because the market went up. I didn't make or lose a cent
because I didn't sell. There are only two days that mean anything
when you are investing. The day you purchase the stock and the day
you sell the stock. You could have purchased it for a buck, it could
have gone to a 100,000 and back to two bucks on the day you sell. You
made a dollar.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


Variable costs, fuel, engine maint fund, oil, replaceable items like tires
etc, does not necessarily vary with additional hours flown.

BT

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:ODWwd.591568$D%.397211@attbi_s51...
Well I have only been an airplane owner for a few months but so far
owning is more expensive than renting. I must say that the convenience
of
having your own airplane to go to when ever you want is worth a few
bucks. Has anyone found owning more expensive than renting? :-)

Owning is always more expensive than renting, until you get to a high
number of hours flown annually.

The old "100 hours per year break-even point" is about right -- until
you
do a major interior upgrade, or replace a cylinder. Than *poof* --
renting looks mighty fine. I'd bet the "real" break-even point (over
time) is closer to 150 hours per year.

But you're right -- owning is worth every penny.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

Speaking of washing planes. How do you get your plane washed in the
winter? Mine could use it and I have no idea what to do.


I *never* wash my planes (or motorcycles) with soap and water. Everything
is done with Lemon Pledge and cloth diapers.

Unfortunately they no longer make pump-spray Pledge, and the aerosol stuff
is just not right. (It comes out in a foam, instead of liquid.)

Luckily, I bought 6 cases of the stuff before they stopped making it -- so
I'm good for a few more years. ;-)

Anyway, Pledge works on any above-freezing day. The paint looks new, and so
does the plexiglass. I haven't had to find a substitute yet, so if anyone
finds an equally economical solution, please post it here.

You obviously don't get your cars or airplane very dirty. Washing off
mud or any amount of dirt with Pledge and a diaper would make a great
abrasive that would trash your paint in short order. Vehicles should
always be washed with lots of water prior to touching the surface with a
sponge or cloth. Soap helps loosen the dirt and avoid scratches, but
water alone does a pretty good job. Never take a cloth to a dry and
dirty painted or plexi surface.


Matt

Nathan Young wrote:

On 19 Dec 2004 06:02:40 -0800, "Denny" wrote:


I have rented / owned / owned and rented / leased / borrowed (never
stole though / airplanes my entire adult life... I could teach an
entire PhD course in the uneconomics of airplanes...


Good one, I'd never heard the term ueconomics before.


things I have learned along the way is that owning is more expensive
than renting - period!


I have been fortunate, my ownership costs have been around $68/hr for
a Cherokee 180, but this is not including engine overhaul reserve,
aircraft depreciation due to increased TTAF, the new paint job,
avionics updates, Knots2U mods, opportunity cost of money, and the
countless hours I've spent working on the plane (which I enjoy).

No, your ownership costs have been way higher than $68/hours. Your
direct operating costs may be $68/hr, but not your ownership costs.


Matt

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 13:04:21 GMT, Jon Kraus
wrote:

Speaking of washing planes. How do you get your plane washed in the
winter? Mine could use it and I have no idea what to do. Thanks!!

I figure that's added insulation.

Mine rarely gets washed in the winter.

OTOH you can use the so called "dry wash". It's not really dry and
goes on much like wax with a wet cloth. It does a good job on
everything except grease and oil. There, I guess you could use some
solvent followed by the dry wash.

It does need above freezing temperatures though.
A couple of the catalytic LP gas heaters do a pretty good job of
making the hanger warm enough you can shed the "long snuggies", but
it's definitely not tropical in there.


Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Dirty Mooney Owner


Jay Honeck wrote:

I find walking out to a rental airplane that someone else has already
washed, fueled, fixed, annualed, etc. etc. etc. pretty damn convenient.

Down time is the only time I miss the multi-plane club.

There
are two sides to every story.


Wow -- the rental planes I used to fly we

a) Clapped out

That's the only kind I can afford.

b) Unwashed -- for years

Why wash? Bugs stick better to a clean plane.
Once they build up a layer it doesn't seem to get any thicker.
As slippery as they are, you'd think they'd make the plane go faster.

c) Rarely fueled by anyone except me

Your contributions are appreciated, but not acknowledged publicly.

d) Had lots of things wrong -- or, at least, not quite right

You are describing a normal airplane.
and they say, FORD = Fix, Or Repair Daily.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

And if it was hangared (few were), I had to drag the thing out of a group
hangar from behind a couple of other planes.

There is nothing about renting that I miss -- except at annual time.

;-)

Jay Honeck wrote:

Wow -- the rental planes I used to fly we

a) Clapped out
b) Unwashed -- for years
c) Rarely fueled by anyone except me
d) Had lots of things wrong -- or, at least, not quite right

There are two FBOs around here that have 172Rs and 172SPs that are in
pretty- to quite-good shape. One is also a Cessna dealer, so I expect that
this plays some role.

Unfortunately, though, stepping up from the 172 is tougher to find. Add
that to my list of club advantages.

There are other FBOs here, of course, which are more as you describe. So I
guess there is a market for that.

- Andrew

"Jay Honeck" wrote

Unfortunately they no longer make pump-spray Pledge, and the aerosol stuff
is just not right. (It comes out in a foam, instead of liquid.)

Jay Honeck

Have you tried turning a can upside down, and spraying out all of the
propellant? Then you can stab or cut the can open and get the stuff out.
I'll bet the foaming is not there without the pressure.
--
Jim in NC