Tamed by the Tailwheel

"Richard Russell" wrote in message
...
snipped...
For what its worth, I give you both credit for dropping your
squabble
before it became one of the 100 back and forth posts I've seen in
these forums. Obviously both of you are/were good pilots and have
alot to offer. Usenet (like a classroom) is not the best place to
have detailed discussions about flying, and disagreements will
occur.
I'm glad you both can agree to disagree and move on so we all don't
need to read about your differences.

In all sincerity - Thank You.

z
I agree. It's painful for us low-time mortals to listen to two guys
that each have a lot to offer arguing like old ladies. It's kinda
like a kid listneing to his parents having a fight. Look forward to
many more constructive posts from both of you.
Rich Russell

Ditto for you on my answer to zatatime, only for you, it wasn't even
an
original thought. You're even less productive than he is.You can't
even
write your own material.
Sorry, but for me, people like you two who make these "jump on
corrective posts after the fact simply don't cut it.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
for private email; make necessary changes between ( )
dhenriques(at)(delete all this)earthlink(dot)net



I'm sorry that you took it that way. As far as productivity levels, I
have been flying for two years and you have been flying for two
lifetimes. I would certainly hope that you have more to offer. That
is the natural order of things in this world. You have also exhibited
a high level of patience and tolerance with those that are less
knowledgeble, often taking the time to post long and very helpful
explanations for complex concepts. The words mentor and role-model
come to mind. That is why I made my comment. It is not typical to
see you get decend from that well earned status into a non-technical
usenet ****ing match. I will still seek out your posts and hope to
learn from them. I'll thank you in advance because, much to your
relief, you will not hear from me again. (By the way, you may have
already been too fired up to realize it, but my post was intended as
more of a compliment than anything else. No ill will was intended.)
Rich Russell

You're right, I am relieved. Just not the least bit interested. Lurk as
you please, or don't lurk as you please. That's completely up to you.
This is Usenet, not the Pilots Buddy Association.
Usenet by definition is a hostile environment. The sooner you learn
this, the quicker you will stop making idiotic posts like you just did
and wise up. This time you just lost communication with me. perhaps next
time you might lose something you actually value!
Just that fact that we're having this "little talk" is positive proof
that your post was a bad move.....a complete negative result!
What have you gained? What have you learned? I'm sure in your self
righteousness you feel you have learned that I'm "not what you thought I
was" and that "you're disappointed in me".
Who cares? I sure don't!!! Just forget me as someone who will be
friendly to you in the future and move on to someone else.
Life on Usenet goes on! :-)
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
for private email; make necessary changes between ( )
dhenriques(at)(delete all this)earthlink(dot)net

There seem to be 2 schools of thought on this wheelie vs 3 pointer
thing. Ones says thatyou plan it out well in advance (at least short
final) and do either a wheelie or 3 pointer. The other seems to say it
can go either way. I've read someone who said that picking 1 or the
other just before touchdown is a good training exercise.

This has got to be immensely confusing for many but I feel like I get
the sense in both!

First, different conditions faced by different a/c clearly suggest one
method over the other. In my Maule, it's almost always a 3 pointer with
flaps and airspeed determined by the conditions. So, I plan what it's
going to be well in advance. For example, 20 knot xwind means a 0 flap
3 pointer at 65 mph. (per Dudley and others)

Second, real time conditions can mean a the mains touch first or all 3
or even the tail first. Based on that, I finish the landing
accordinging. If the mains touch first, I push slightly to keep them
on, that is, I do a wheelie. If all 3 touch, then a pull to keep it all
planted on, that is, I do 3 pointer. If the tail touches first, I just
hold on or pull a bit, all 3 are going to be in contact very quickly and
they are going to stay there, no choice. (per Selway - is that what you
meant?)

I was trained to do the first but I've learned to do the 2nd.
Recognizing and achieving the right attitude comes with time... but
responding properly and instantly seems to me to be a mark of proficiency


T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
wrote:


I do have a lot
of time in aircraft with the wheel in the rear and god only knows how
many thousands of landings with them (perhaps 20-30,000+?).

...

I never knew if it was going to be a 3 point or a wheel landing.


I don't see how you can make 20-30,000+ landings and not get
a good feel for the attitude of the aircraft. Heck, the
ground's right there, so you've got a great attitude
reference. If it's tail low, the tail hits first. A bit
higher it's 3-pt. Higher still, it's a wheel landing.


"It is possible to fly without motors, but not without knowledge and skill."
Wilbur Wright

I'll tell you what it's worth.
These "after the fact, you have intruded on my space but I forgive you"
sentiments are really a royal pain the butt and serve no positive
purpose.
Boy did you miss the point. I didn't forgive you for anything. I was
thanking you for setting a good example.

In fact, the opposite is true.
Usenet is bad enough with those of us who don't like each other and
don't get along without adding your "holier then thou" comment AFTER two
people have settled something that didn't involve you.
My approach was not one of a Holier than thou attitude, just one guy
saying thanks to another for doing something right. And by the way it
did involve me, and countless others who read entire threads so they
can learn something, and get frustrated when wars overcome what was a
constructive thread.

snip

BTW, any further continuance of ANY kind with my answer to your post is
nothing more then added proof that all you have done here is to produce
a negative result.
Not entirely. Hopefully you will see that my intentions were not of
ill intent, and that courteous behavior is a positive trait, not a
negative one. If you don't see this though, and need to respond in
like fashion to these comments, you will have proven your point from
the context of your post, not mine.

Hey now....wasn't THIS little venture worth doing ?????? :-))))
Yes, I had at least a 50% success rate from my post. In Usenet that's
pretty damned good.

z

Todd
The transition time between 2 vs 3 point is a relatively short one on
takeoff or landing! To combine the techniques you describe are fine if
they work for you. Here is "MY" take on it for what its worth.
When I am working, I don't make any money unless the spray handle is ON
and any time on the ground cuts into my income. So, I try to minimize
that time by making the shortest possible takeoff, and the shortest
possible landing that puts me very close to the load ramp. Very common
practice in ag aviation. Most of the time we work in low wind
conditions to avoid any chemical drift, and often the DA is high with
temps. So, the vast majority of my landings are wheel landings at
minimum speed and the tail drops immediately when I cut the power -
regardless if piston or turbine. I'll keep forward pressure on the
controls until the tail comes down and then apply full aft stick to
keep it there as well as assist in steering. Nearly all of the modern
spray planes have a locking tailwheel that is unlocked by a full
forward movement of the stick which pulls the locking pin out of detent
by means of a cable attached to the elevator controls. It requires an
immediate turn to keep the pin from dropping back into detent and
locking the tailwheel again. That is something that takes a little
getting used to. Sometimes when it won't unlock, you add power and
forward stick to get the tail up off the ground while you do a delicate
balancing act turn using differential braking. I learned that technique
in the mid 60's when we were loading on a levee and didn't have room to
turn and keep the tail on the levee. That too took some getting used to
but after a little practice it was Ho-Hum.
Per your technique of 0 flap and 65 mph, what is happening while you
dissipate the additional speed? Is it not possible to land slower using
judicious power to touch down well under control, and with little
flying speed to get rid of once you are firmly planted with all 3?
And, a technique I have used many times on a variety of strips, is to
make the final approach at an angle into the wind and touch down on the
downwind side of the runway crosswind. That makes my landing roll more
into the wind and takes out some of the XW component. There have been
times when I had no choice but to use that technique in both single and
twins.How severe an angle you can make of course depends on the width
of the runway, wind velocity, etc. After touchdown you let the wind
push you back towards the centerline and you end up parallel to the
runway. That is the simplistic description but has worked for me.
Forgive me if I have taken the discussion in a different direction but
felt a more complete answer was called for.
Cheers
Rocky

JS
You make me smile with that one! So many of the strips I have worked
from are about 1200' and require reduced loads which is why I hate
them. One I worked on in Egypt -300 meters - had corn growing at each
end. As the corn grew it caused my wheels to drag through the tops.
I've got some pics where you can see the strips where my gear trimmed
the corn through the season! the landings never bothered me since you
seldom need more than 500' for rollout.
Regards
Selway Kid (from the Selway Bitterroot Wilderness)

Someone else pointed out here or maybe on the citabria group about the
advantage of hitting the tailwheel first. That is, if the tailwheel
hits first, when the mains drop the angle of attack lessens reducing
lift. Is this significant? I suppose that if the landing speed is as
slow as it should be, it really doesn't matter. Personally I like
landing as slow as reasonably possible. Less wear and tear on the tires
and it's more fun.

Dave
68 7ECA
vincent p. norris wrote:
Believe it or not, it's okay to roll the tailwheel first.


There was no better way to get a pat on the back from our Navy
instructors at Pensacola than hitting the tailwheel first. That was
back in the days when airplanes had tailwheels, of course.

vince norris

"zatatime" wrote in message
...


I'll tell you what it's worth.
These "after the fact, you have intruded on my space but I forgive
you"
sentiments are really a royal pain the butt and serve no positive
purpose.
Boy did you miss the point. I didn't forgive you for anything. I was
thanking you for setting a good example.

In fact, the opposite is true.
Usenet is bad enough with those of us who don't like each other and
don't get along without adding your "holier then thou" comment AFTER
two
people have settled something that didn't involve you.
My approach was not one of a Holier than thou attitude, just one guy
saying thanks to another for doing something right. And by the way it
did involve me, and countless others who read entire threads so they
can learn something, and get frustrated when wars overcome what was a
constructive thread.

snip

BTW, any further continuance of ANY kind with my answer to your post
is
nothing more then added proof that all you have done here is to
produce
a negative result.

Not entirely. Hopefully you will see that my intentions were not of
ill intent, and that courteous behavior is a positive trait, not a
negative one. If you don't see this though, and need to respond in
like fashion to these comments, you will have proven your point from
the context of your post, not mine.

Sorry, no sale. I have no doubt that YOU believe sincerely that your
post held no ill intent. That's the trouble with people who post these
little after "zingers". You don't actually realize, or even care what
you are doing. All you see is your need to express yourself...to let the
"usurpers" know the real meaning of life and how they should act in your
presense. :-)
Your post was exactly as I read it, a condescending, idiotic attempt at
a demonstration of superiority through the use of veiled compliment. The
oldest gag in the book, and it works with some of the dip****s. I just
don't happen to be one of them.
Your insulting my intelligence, and I don't suffer fools gladly.
You clowns always make the same sophoroic mistake. You give it all away
with the comma. You just can't stop without the adder can you?

" and that courtious behavior is a positive trait".

There it is, the kicker!!! What could possibly be more condescending
than THIS statement to an adult. One thing I've learned about people
like you is that you LOVE these compound sentences. The REAL intent of
the post can always be found after the comma!! :-)
Nope....you're a Usenet " I'm duty bound to keep everyone in line" type
all right. I just don't need you.

Hey now....wasn't THIS little venture worth doing ?????? :-))))

Yes, I had at least a 50% success rate from my post. In Usenet that's
pretty damned good.

Actually your odds are as off as your post was. When you post something
like this to me, you have a 0 chance of success, which now you have
learned.

No great loss I'm sure for either one of us. It's Usenet!!!
I can practically guarantee you that the two people you posted about
with your little "aftershock zinger" will probably be talking again LONG
before you and I are eye to eye again on this or any other forum. If
not, that's Usenet as well!!
Take care, so long, and may the good Lord take a liking to ya!! :-)
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
for private email; make necessary changes between ( )
dhenriques(at)(delete all this)earthlink(dot)net

On 14 Jan 2005 14:01:16 -0800, wrote:

Selway Kid (from the Selway Bitterroot Wilderness)

Do you know Roland Turney at Bear Creek Lodge? Flies a Centurion.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

Sorry...No I don't. I haven't flown in the backcountry there in a
number of years. My last guide work was NE of there in the Bob Marshall
wilderness in Montana and we didn't have any fly-ins.
Ol S&B

Sounds like you mostly did minimum speed wheelies. That is touching on
2, holding forward pressure until the wheel drops, then aft stick for
control. Classic wheelie I think. That's what I observed the Pawnee
tow pilots do at sailplane meets. Like you, they get a lot of practice
and minimum turnaround is what makes money. The deal there was 50 water
ballasted sailplanes, towed to 2,000 feet in less than an hour. A
minimum number of towplanes would typically be employed. The most tows
were done by the fastest climbing, fasted descending, quickest landing
tow pilots. Birdogs would do the same. Super cubs and the occasional
Maule tended to 3 point. Seems to depend on a/c.

My tailwheel experience is limited to the Maule so by definition, I
don't really know what I'm talking about. But the Maule really likes to
be 3 pointed in practically all conditions according to those that know
it best. Maybe the fact that it is a bit squirrelly even on takeoff
when on the mains maby be the reason but I don't know. What do I mean
by squirrelly? On grass, it hops when rolling on the mains. It's
practically impossible to avoid the hops on a non-smooth surface. You
just pick hop 1,2, or 3 to takeoff on.

The 0 flap, 65mph is close to a minimum energy exercise (and by the
book). Stall speed at full gross and 0flap is 61mph. My last look
at the ASI would be at 65 with some power. I would generally chop
before touch down so I'm sure I'm close to stall even at less than
gross. I'm still flying at TD but there is no extra energy.

Anyway, the angled TO and Landing in xwinds is good stuff that I also
advocate. The centerline is nice but into the wind is better.

A thought on the low speed work. I agree with you on the need to train
more there. But like off field emergency landing work which we talked
about before, some people naturally get more training and practice than
others. As an Ag pilot, you spend a lot of time low, slow, and turning.
YOu would naturally be very proficient at low speed work and off field
landings. Perhaps more so than the transportation type that spends a
lot of time high, fast, and on autopilot. When I was glider flying and
doing a lot of cc work, I did off field landings that should probably
never be attempted by most (even me). But I was very proficient at low,
slow, and off field landingsat that time. My point is that while a
certain level of low speed proficiency is needed by all, doing xwind
landings on short sections of single track levees is never recommended
for most of us.


wrote:
Todd
The transition time between 2 vs 3 point is a relatively short one on
takeoff or landing! To combine the techniques you describe are fine if
they work for you. Here is "MY" take on it for what its worth.
When I am working, I don't make any money unless the spray handle is ON
and any time on the ground cuts into my income. So, I try to minimize
that time by making the shortest possible takeoff, and the shortest
possible landing that puts me very close to the load ramp. Very common
practice in ag aviation. Most of the time we work in low wind
conditions to avoid any chemical drift, and often the DA is high with
temps. So, the vast majority of my landings are wheel landings at
minimum speed and the tail drops immediately when I cut the power -
regardless if piston or turbine. I'll keep forward pressure on the
controls until the tail comes down and then apply full aft stick to
keep it there as well as assist in steering. Nearly all of the modern
spray planes have a locking tailwheel that is unlocked by a full
forward movement of the stick which pulls the locking pin out of detent
by means of a cable attached to the elevator controls. It requires an
immediate turn to keep the pin from dropping back into detent and
locking the tailwheel again. That is something that takes a little
getting used to. Sometimes when it won't unlock, you add power and
forward stick to get the tail up off the ground while you do a delicate
balancing act turn using differential braking. I learned that technique
in the mid 60's when we were loading on a levee and didn't have room to
turn and keep the tail on the levee. That too took some getting used to
but after a little practice it was Ho-Hum.
Per your technique of 0 flap and 65 mph, what is happening while you
dissipate the additional speed? Is it not possible to land slower using
judicious power to touch down well under control, and with little
flying speed to get rid of once you are firmly planted with all 3?
And, a technique I have used many times on a variety of strips, is to
make the final approach at an angle into the wind and touch down on the
downwind side of the runway crosswind. That makes my landing roll more
into the wind and takes out some of the XW component. There have been
times when I had no choice but to use that technique in both single and
twins.How severe an angle you can make of course depends on the width
of the runway, wind velocity, etc. After touchdown you let the wind
push you back towards the centerline and you end up parallel to the
runway. That is the simplistic description but has worked for me.
Forgive me if I have taken the discussion in a different direction but
felt a more complete answer was called for.
Cheers
Rocky