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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28



 
 
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  #21  
Old October 24th 06, 07:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Nyal Williams
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Posts: 215
Default Glider pricing

Ernie Schweizer was heard to say that production costs
could be calculated from the empty weight.

At 14:54 24 October 2006, Bill Daniels wrote:

'Chris Rollings' wrote in message
...
Slightly off topic, but addresses your last point.

'Rollings Law of Price and Performance (for NEW gliders)'

Performance varies with the square root of wing-span;
price varies with the square of wing-span.



The first is aerodynamically correct. The second is
market observation.

The cost of materials varies by the weight of the bare
airframe. All else
like instruments are the same for all gliders. Labor
for a given production
technique probably related to surface area.

The biggest determinant of the final price is production
volume. Or, more
correctly, the volume anticipated at the start of production.
If a
manufacturer knew from the start that the final production
numbers would
exceed say, 3000 gliders, investments in labor saving
tooling would make
sense. This, in turn, would increase the production
run yet more since
lower prices would eintice still more buyers.

But of course, how do you know you are going to produce
a lot of gliders?

Bill Daniels






  #22  
Old October 25th 06, 03:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ben Flewett
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Posts: 2
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

It depends what you want the glider for...

Discus 2a – Definitely the best performer but you pay
the price in comfort. I am 6 foot 2 inches and have
to wear thin shoes and no jersey if I want to close
the canopy. You need 200 hours in it before you start
to get it to perform.

Discus 2b – Next best performer… and good for the
larger American. Again, you need 200 hours in it before
you get it to perform primarily because you have to
learn exactly how much to slip it in the climb.

LS8 - Next best performer after the D2b. You don’t
have to learn how to fly it and it’s roomy. However,
it pushes your toes together if you are tall which
gives you sore knees – this is not a problem for most
but a very serious problem for some.

ASW28 – Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely
does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8
(including high speed range). In fact, I would rate
it’s performance as surprisingly poor in comparison
to the D2 and LS8. However, it’s VERY crashworthy
which is excellent.

Discus (1) – you can’t compare it with the above gliders
for performance, particularly at high wing loadings.

If you want to become a serious competition pilot buy
a D2. If you want an excellent performing glider that
is easy to fly buy an LS8 (but check it doesn’t give
you sore knees first). Don’t buy an ASW28 if you are
interested in competitions or if you crash often.

By the way – there is no such thing as D2x. The changes
on the V2x were basically a retro fit of the D2 advancements
to the V2.

Cheers,

Ben


At 21:36 22 October 2006, Roger wrote:
How do these two gliders compare to one another? Is
there a Discus 2x?
How does the original compare in todays competition
world, LS8, Discus
2, ASW-28. Does the oringinal Discus give away any
performance to the
current crop of gliders. Interesting to note that
the LS8 is an LS6
with fixed flaps, therefore, it is still of the same
generation of the
oringinal Discus, or is it?!





  #23  
Old October 26th 06, 12:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy[_1_]
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Posts: 1,565
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28


Ben Flewett wrote:
ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely
does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8
(including high speed range). In fact, I would rate
it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison
to the D2 and LS8.


I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that
conclusion.

Andy

  #24  
Old October 26th 06, 06:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Greef
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Posts: 62
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

Andy wrote:
Ben Flewett wrote:
ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely
does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8
(including high speed range). In fact, I would rate
it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison
to the D2 and LS8.


I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that
conclusion.

Andy

Having won the Omarama Grand Prix, with a current world ranking of #86 - highest
IGC ranking of #7 I believe. Contested World and European contests in Discus 2s

I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations.

A quote from Pete Harvey - UK Racing pilot - on losing day 2 at
http://www.gp06.com/race_diary/diary_day2.htm
“It’s so frustrating to be beaten at the last moment by the glider type, not
pilot skill.” The Discus overtakes the LS8 on final glide."

From the results "SS" - ASW28 never got close.

just my 2c worth...

For Referrence - a simple google search would get you to a ~2700 hits for Ben
Flewett.
http://www.glidingteam.co.uk/competi...cle.php?id=183

http://www.fai.org/gliding/ben_flewett
http://www.gliding.co.nz/
  #25  
Old October 26th 06, 07:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Robert Danewid
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Posts: 25
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

Perhaps pilot skill was involved in the results (especially
for SS)??

Just my 3c worth....

Robert

Bruce Greef wrote:
Andy wrote:

Ben Flewett wrote:
ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely
does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8
(including high speed range). In fact, I would rate
it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison
to the D2 and LS8.


I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that
conclusion.

Andy

Having won the Omarama Grand Prix, with a current world ranking of #86 -
highest IGC ranking of #7 I believe. Contested World and European
contests in Discus 2s

I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations.

A quote from Pete Harvey - UK Racing pilot - on losing day 2 at
http://www.gp06.com/race_diary/diary_day2.htm
“It’s so frustrating to be beaten at the last moment by the glider
type, not pilot skill.” The Discus overtakes the LS8 on final glide."

From the results "SS" - ASW28 never got close.

just my 2c worth...

For Referrence - a simple google search would get you to a ~2700 hits
for Ben Flewett.
http://www.glidingteam.co.uk/competi...cle.php?id=183


http://www.fai.org/gliding/ben_flewett
http://www.gliding.co.nz/


  #26  
Old October 26th 06, 09:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ruud[_1_]
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Posts: 8
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

On 25 Oct 2006 14:27:33 GMT, Ben Flewett
wrote:

It depends what you want the glider for...

Plus the type of weather in which you're flying most of the time.

ASW28 – Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely
does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8
(including high speed range). In fact, I would rate
it’s performance as surprisingly poor in comparison
to the D2 and LS8. However, it’s VERY crashworthy
which is excellent.


If you fly your glider in weak lift conditions most of the time, the
picture will be a complete different one.
Additional advantages of the ASW28 are better visibility from the
cockpit and a much better overall finish than the D2 and LS8.

BTW, there are only few ASW28 for sale, while you can fill oceans with
second hand LS8 and D2.
If you´re looking for a ASW28, look have a look at:
http://home.planet.nl/~holsw007/asw28/
;-)

  #27  
Old October 27th 06, 12:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
clydebh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28


Robert Danewid wrote:
Perhaps pilot skill was involved in the results (especially
for SS)??

Just my 3c worth....

Robert

Bruce Greef wrote:
Andy wrote:

Ben Flewett wrote:
ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely
does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8
(including high speed range). In fact, I would rate
it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison
to the D2 and LS8.


I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that
conclusion.

Andy

Having won the Omarama Grand Prix, with a current world ranking of #86 -
highest IGC ranking of #7 I believe. Contested World and European
contests in Discus 2s

I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations.

A quote from Pete Harvey - UK Racing pilot - on losing day 2 at
http://www.gp06.com/race_diary/diary_day2.htm
"It's so frustrating to be beaten at the last moment by the glider
type, not pilot skill." The Discus overtakes the LS8 on final glide."

From the results "SS" - ASW28 never got close.

just my 2c worth...

For Referrence - a simple google search would get you to a ~2700 hits
for Ben Flewett.
http://www.glidingteam.co.uk/competi...cle.php?id=183


http://www.fai.org/gliding/ben_flewett
http://www.gliding.co.nz/


  #28  
Old October 27th 06, 12:10 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
clydebh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28


Robert Danewid wrote:
Perhaps pilot skill was involved in the results (especially
for SS)??

Just my 3c worth....

Robert

Bruce Greef wrote:
Andy wrote:

Ben Flewett wrote:
ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely
does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8
(including high speed range). In fact, I would rate
it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison
to the D2 and LS8.


I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that
conclusion.

Andy

Having won the Omarama Grand Prix, with a current world ranking of #86 -
highest IGC ranking of #7 I believe. Contested World and European
contests in Discus 2s

I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations.

A quote from Pete Harvey - UK Racing pilot - on losing day 2 at
http://www.gp06.com/race_diary/diary_day2.htm
"It's so frustrating to be beaten at the last moment by the glider
type, not pilot skill." The Discus overtakes the LS8 on final glide."

From the results "SS" - ASW28 never got close.

just my 2c worth...

For Referrence - a simple google search would get you to a ~2700 hits
for Ben Flewett.
http://www.glidingteam.co.uk/competi...cle.php?id=183


http://www.fai.org/gliding/ben_flewett
http://www.gliding.co.nz/


  #29  
Old October 27th 06, 12:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
clydebh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28


Robert Danewid wrote:
Perhaps pilot skill was involved in the results (especially
for SS)??

Just my 3c worth....

Robert

Bruce Greef wrote:
Andy wrote:

Ben Flewett wrote:
ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely
does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8
(including high speed range). In fact, I would rate
it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison
to the D2 and LS8.


I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that
conclusion.

Andy

Having won the Omarama Grand Prix, with a current world ranking of #86 -
highest IGC ranking of #7 I believe. Contested World and European
contests in Discus 2s

I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations.

A quote from Pete Harvey - UK Racing pilot - on losing day 2 at
http://www.gp06.com/race_diary/diary_day2.htm
"It's so frustrating to be beaten at the last moment by the glider
type, not pilot skill." The Discus overtakes the LS8 on final glide."

From the results "SS" - ASW28 never got close.

just my 2c worth...

For Referrence - a simple google search would get you to a ~2700 hits
for Ben Flewett.
http://www.glidingteam.co.uk/competi...cle.php?id=183


http://www.fai.org/gliding/ben_flewett
http://www.gliding.co.nz/


  #30  
Old October 27th 06, 01:07 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16
Default Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28


Why has nobody included in any comparisons the Diana 2, Lak 17 and 19,
SZD-56-2, and the 304CZ (or any other Eastern European products of
comparable performance I might have missed) - maybe about 10k-20k
cheaper than the German sailplanes so far discussed in this thread?

Chris N. (Vested interest - Lak 17 owner)

 




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