Nearly Mid-Air Collision at Estrella

In the Washington, Idaho, Oregon area, we were told (last year, by a
military ATC person briefing us at our contest) about 20% of the big
transports have TCAS or equivalent; all new ones get it; old ones are
slowly being retrofitted. None of the fighters have it. A couple of
years ago, a fighter pilot told me fighters can usually pick up small
aircraft on their radar. He didn't comment specifically about when they
are flying close to the ground, like the time Chip Garner was hit, or
the crop duster fatality we had here several years ago when he was hit a
few hundred feet off the ground by a fighter.

If you have a transponder, and the transports are flying high enough to
show on the radar (here they are often quite low during training), the
military ATC will warn them of your presence. Not as good as TCAS on the
transport; better than nothing!

Twice, I've had two A-10s climb by me at 30 degree angles (not in MOAs,
either). I believe they saw me and came up to take a look; I sure hope
so, because I don't think there is any way I can see something coming
that fast from below me, and so quickly.

Gary Evans wrote:
Do military aircraft utilize transponder signal based
collision avoidance systems?


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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

"Todd Pattist" wrote in message
...
(Kirk Stant) wrote:

If I hear a powerplane (any kind!) while cruising and don't see him -
My response is to IMMEDIATELY throw up a wing and pull a hard S-turn.

I won't discourage you - but If he's close enough to hear,
he's pretty darn close. He's also likely to be wings level
and cruising, so by throwing your wing up, you are probably
increasing your relative impact cross section, which is
usually minimum when the wings are parallel and the paths
are parallel. It's not clear to me that I have enough time
to turn, spot the danger, and then maneuver to avoid. I may
be just turning into him. I have to admit I hate it when I
can hear a powerplane in cruise, but can't see it. What do
others do?


Actually, if you hear an airplane engine, it's likely that it is directly
below you where the sound can reflect back from the ground.

A pilot once told me a story about having cheated on cloud clearance to get
above the bases of a broken cumulus deck. Suddenly, he heard a large number
of big piston engines nearby. Looking in all directions, he couldn't locate
the source of the sound, but it seemed as if a large formation of
multi-engine aircraft would burst out of the clouds at any moment.

This went on for several minutes and he became more and more panicked and
confused since the aircraft making the sound should have passed by.
Finally, a break in the clouds allowed him to see an unlimited hydroplane
race underway on a lake below. Those hydroplanes were powered by V12
aircraft engines.

I'll now tell my near miss story.

Thermalling near Riverside California one day I say a small puff of smoke
off to the south. "That's strange", I thought as I continued to circle.
Next time around the ball of smoke was still there and it seemed bigger.
Several more turns in the thermal and the ball of smoke was getting very pro
minent and there was a black dot in the center of it.

The smoke was jet exhaust and the black dot turned out to be a B52 with me
in his crosshairs. As I dove for clearance, he passed less than 100 feet
above me. That was noisy.

Bill Daniels





Bill Daniels

Eric Greenwell skrev den Mon, 02 Feb 2004
09:09:04 -0800:
Twice, I've had two A-10s climb by me at 30 degree angles (not in MOAs,
either). I believe they saw me and came up to take a look; I sure hope
so, because I don't think there is any way I can see something coming
that fast from below me, and so quickly.

They insist on painting the buggers green, grey and all kinds of strange
colours that can't be seen too! We share our field with a helo batallion
and the eggbeaters are really hard to pick out against the backdrop of
forest!

Strange, those military types. Why don't they paint them neon?

Cheers,
Fred

"Todd Pattist" wrote in message

I have to admit I hate it when I
can hear a powerplane in cruise, but can't see it. What do
others do?

"Roger that!"
1) Immediately worry/get alarmed.
2) Try to determine locus of noise.
3) Heighten lookout beyond normal paranoia, w. focus on locus.
4) Get real small in the cockpit.
5) Sometimes think, "Ah (insert expletive of choice)!"
6) (So far) Heave sigh of relief...

The ones I've *really* hated are the ones I've heard and *never* spotted.
Followed by the ones I've spotted too late to do anything about. My "best"
close one was nearly being boresighted by a PB4Y firebomber climbing up from
my 6 o'clock (Navy, single-tailed "Liberator"), seeing it, then hearing it,
determining it was going to pass 50-100' below me, and gazing down on 2
heads in the cockpit showing every sign they'd not seen me. Nice view;
alarming situation.

Regards,
Bob W.


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Fredrik Thörnell wrote in message ...
Gary Evans skrev den 2 Feb 2004
15:32:41 GMT:

Do military aircraft utilize transponder signal based
collision avoidance systems?

Yes, and this does not amuse controllers as they have a fast jet blasting
upwards at umpteen thousand fpm, setting off all the TCAS bells in the
traffic above the sector.

Cheers,
Fred

It depends. The newer, large transport (and tanker?) military
aircraft probably have TCAS, since they are usually equipped to
airliner standards. But they also will almost always be on an IFR
flight plan.

Fighters are a whole different bag of fish: Most have air-to-air
radar that may or may not see a glider (I have seen F-16 radar detect
and lock on to a glider). Some Harriers have a radar, but not all.
Some fighters also have the capability to interrogate a transponder,
much like ATC does; this includes F-15s and some F-16s, not sure about
the radar equipped Harrier 2. In this case, a transponder in the
glider will help a lot. As far as I know, no fighter-type aircraft
have TCAS or similar.

All military aircraft have transponders and are squawking mode 3 and
mode C - but if there are two fighters in formation usually only the
flight lead will be squawking - the wingman will be in STBY as long as
he is part of the formation. So a TCAD or similar device in a glider
may not detect all the threats.

Kirk

bumper wrote:

"Terry Claussen" wrote in message
...

A lousy end to what was a beautiful day of soaring, thanks to the USMC
and my own lack of vigilance.



Not sure any reasonable amount of vigilance on your part could be counted on
to avoid a high speed jet from nailing you from behind when you're running
straight in a glider (or other small GA aircraft). I've seen a couple of
fighters pass right close behind another Stemme 1/4 mile ahead of me. Asked
if he'd seen them, he of course hadn't. I suspect, or at least hope, as in
your case too, that the fighters had us and were just doing an exhuberant
buzz job. In any case, not very prudent or responsible of them.

I fly with a transponder and that has to be a help. I've got a ProxAlert R5
on order (www.proxalert.com), so if they're squawking, I'll have their
altitude, range and squawk code too. If their altitude is the same as mine,
with rapidly decreasing range, and I don't have joy on 'em, then like a
raptor approached by a power plane, they'll get to watch me do a wingover
and rather steep spoiler descent.

all the best,

Bumper, I suspect you're right about the exuberance. But if not, if
these guys are flying head down, shouldn't they have radar plenty
capable of spotting a glider? Its not like Schempp-Hirth or DG make
them intentionally stealthy or anything.
Just Curious.

Shawn

If there was a fighter on your 6, why didn't you just deploy
chaff and flares? Ooops...that's another newgroup... :PPP

But one wonders if a bag of flour out
the back might work. We do "ashes" flights, where
remains are scattered over the ocean, and we drop a paper bag
out the window with a string that rips it down the side
as it goes out. It makes a big enough cloud that the
relatives can see it from 2000 feet away.
Hmmm...how to make a "ready deploy" system...

Just another crazy thought...I'm not so enthralled with
S-turning and increasing my impact signature...but
perhaps that ain't a bad idea either...

If radar getting you is a problem, for boats they make fairly
compact aluminum "radar reflectors" that are pretty lightweight.
Dunno if they'd fit in a tail section though, kinda
"ship-in-a-bottle" maybe?

Kirk Stant skrev den 2 Feb 2004 11:15:10 -0800:

All military aircraft have transponders and are squawking mode 3 and
mode C - but if there are two fighters in formation usually only the
flight lead will be squawking - the wingman will be in STBY as long as
he is part of the formation. So a TCAD or similar device in a glider
may not detect all the threats.

My mistake. I was reading 'transponder equipped'. And I agree, I have yet
to see TCAS in fighters. No space, no way of effectively fitting it into
the already complicated peacetime cognitive system without reducing the
wartime capability of same.

Thanks for correcting me!

Cheers,
Fred

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message ...
"Todd Pattist" wrote in message
...
(Kirk Stant) wrote:

If I hear a powerplane (any kind!) while cruising and don't see him -
My response is to IMMEDIATELY throw up a wing and pull a hard S-turn.

I won't discourage you - but If he's close enough to hear,
he's pretty darn close. He's also likely to be wings level
and cruising, so by throwing your wing up, you are probably
increasing your relative impact cross section, which is
usually minimum when the wings are parallel and the paths
are parallel. It's not clear to me that I have enough time
to turn, spot the danger, and then maneuver to avoid. I may
be just turning into him. I have to admit I hate it when I
can hear a powerplane in cruise, but can't see it. What do
others do?


Actually, if you hear an airplane engine, it's likely that it is directly
below you where the sound can reflect back from the ground.

A pilot once told me a story about having cheated on cloud clearance to get
above the bases of a broken cumulus deck. Suddenly, he heard a large number
of big piston engines nearby. Looking in all directions, he couldn't locate
the source of the sound, but it seemed as if a large formation of
multi-engine aircraft would burst out of the clouds at any moment.

This went on for several minutes and he became more and more panicked and
confused since the aircraft making the sound should have passed by.
Finally, a break in the clouds allowed him to see an unlimited hydroplane
race underway on a lake below. Those hydroplanes were powered by V12
aircraft engines.

I'll now tell my near miss story.

Thermalling near Riverside California one day I say a small puff of smoke
off to the south. "That's strange", I thought as I continued to circle.
Next time around the ball of smoke was still there and it seemed bigger.
Several more turns in the thermal and the ball of smoke was getting very pro
minent and there was a black dot in the center of it.

The smoke was jet exhaust and the black dot turned out to be a B52 with me
in his crosshairs. As I dove for clearance, he passed less than 100 feet
above me. That was noisy.

Bill Daniels





Bill Daniels


I had two noteworthy near misses with military aircraft in my soaring
career, and in both cases, the military joks did spot me well before I
did.
1.) Back in Germany during a winch launch in a Ka-8. I heard the jet
noise come closer very fast but couldn't spot the jet. Keep in mind, I
was facing about 45° up during the climb. The Lockheed 'Star-Fighter'
passed me at my altitude on my left in a nearly 90° bank angle away
from me only to revert back onto his original flight pass by an
equally sharp manouver. I got a close-up glimps into the inner
workings of a jet engine from where I was - way too close. There had
been reports of jets colliding with gliders during winch launches or
just clipping the cables, if they were lucky.
In retrospect, I think what saved me was the fact that I was in a
steep climb putting the entire silouette of the Ka-8 into the sky.

2.) During the 2002 Nat.'s in Lubbock. I was flying together with a
S-10 south of the Cannon AFB. I had just left the thermal and went on
course, when I heard the jet noise come closer. A second later, a F-16
with the 'fuel-to-noise-converter' in re-heat performed a beautiful
vertical climb about 500ft in front of me and begun to circle around
with a lot of condensation clouds on his wings. I could clearly see
the pilot looking at my fine Libelle. I was more concerned about the
S-10 behind me: since the fighter pilot was fixed on me, he could have
run into the S-10.
I still wonder, how this guy found me, by his own radar or ground
radar, both? Anyhow, after circling around me twice, he went on to
sneak up on 'EY' and gave Tim McAllister a personnalized air show.

Scary situations, both with a good ending. I hope it stays that way.

U. Neumann
Libelle 'GM'