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#11
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End of Season Sunset Warning for SSA-OLC Participants
Eric,
"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message news:PdLLg.10359$YZ3.6807@trnddc03... Yuliy Gerchikov wrote: those who do NOT post tend to be the more experienced and wiser pilots. See any connection? No, I don't. This SSA "policing problem" you mention didn't exist until recently, so that couldn't be the reason those pilots didn't post. Wise pilots see the problems that exist, wiser pilots see the problems that are coming. Most of the flights posted don't exceed 18,000', don't enter restricted airspace, and don't fly after sunset, so maybe these restrictions won't deter most pilots. See, here is an example of the problem that is coming. Yesterday it was 18,000. Today it is flying after sunset. What's tomorrow? How do we know if tomorrow somebody won't start arbitrarily pulling some flights from OLC for low passes or for ridge soaring, citing FAR Part 91 Sec. 91.119(c)? What's next? Cloud clearance? Non-standard landing patterns?... Some people just feel that they don't need to subject themselves to this level of scrutiny -- and in today's world with today's attitudes I don't blame them. -- Yuliy |
#12
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End of Season Sunset Warning for SSA-OLC Participants
If only the SSA devoted a fraction of the effort they spend monitoring
their members, to monitoring their financial officers... Yuliy Gerchikov wrote: Stewart, You missed the point. Enforcement is not the issue here -- consistency is. If you insist on enforcing certain rules, then (a) state them clearly, and (b) enforce them all the time and not just on a whim. Checking flights at the time of claim and rejecting those in violation might be OK. Going back and pulling flights retroactively is not OK. Going back and pulling flights *selectively* -- some but not the others with similar "violations" -- is ...I am gasping for words here, and "disgusting" is the RC1 so far. I don't want to even get close to the question how, when and why they decide to pull any given flight and not the next one -- I am afraid that would undermine the last of my respect for humanity . -- Yuliy "Stewart Kissel" wrote in message ... 12. Airspace Violations The OLC organizers have to assume that the participants in the contest will not violate restricted airspace during their flights. ATC clearances are necessary to enter certain airspace. The OLC team will not check if a pilot has obtained the necessary clearance to enter airspace which needs ATC clearance. This is not within our competences and responsibilities. However, if we get to know that there has been an obvious violation of airspace then we reserve the right to carry out special actions against that pilot and his participation in the OLC. Of course every pilot is allowed to contact other pilots in case of a potential airspace violation. What rules are they changing? Is busting FAR's okay if they do not specify not to? Will your insurance pay a claim if you get hit at FL200 or flying after sunset? If we as a group knowingly allow cheating to occur, are we liable as well? If pilots want to fly illegally, they don't need to post logs for the rest of us to see. I wish pilots flew in accordance to the *privilege* of the license...then this discussion would be moot. Calling enforcement an issue is a weak argument. At 01:06 07 September 2006, Yuliy Gerchikov wrote: Doug, May I make some suggestions? (1) Do not change OLC rules mid-season. (2) If you insist on checking all traces for certain violations, do it at the time of claim -- automatically -- and reject those that do not pass, there and then. |
#13
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End of Season Sunset Warning for SSA-OLC Participants
Yuily, you need to move past the bargaining phase of the grieving
process, and accept that you must remove these flights from the OLC because they make us look bad as a group. You could petition the SSA Board to change the FAR policy, but you are not likely to get a warm response. In fact, given the present situation, you are not likely to get any response for some time. As far as changing the rules, the sunset rule has been on the books for longer than almost anyone can remember. The SSA did not make this rule, they just decided not to ignore it. It is unfortunate that the SSA FAR policy statement is not dated, but I received a copy of it on January 20, 2006 when I was researching my presentation for the Knauff & Grove March Soaring Seminar in State College, PA. It is also covered in the presentation slides which were posted to the OLC site on April 1. See: http://www2.onlinecontest.org/olcphp...c=olc-i&spr=en It is unfortunate that you did not see this information. But most reasonable people find it intuitively obvious that you cannot get credit for breaking the rules. And some of them have been complaining about this as well. Is it reasonable to allow ignorace to become an unfair advantage? Yuliy Gerchikov wrote: Doug, May I make some suggestions? (1) Do not change OLC rules mid-season. (2) If you insist on checking all traces for certain violations, do it at the time of claim -- automatically -- and reject those that do not pass, there and then. Going back through the season and arbitrarily hand-picking "bad" flights seems like huge waste of time -- yours and everybody else's. More generally, I can't help but notice that OLC has become a much worse place since SSA got involved. It started with a huge ugly STATIONARY banner on top of SSA-OLC page that serves no good purpose but to generate advertisement income for SSA at the expense of users' screen space. I checked other national OLCs, and the ONLY three out of 29 that do this tasteless disservice to their users are AT, FR and US. Now this policing of the traces. OLC used to be an extremely valuable tool for sharing and learning. I used to rave about it and promote it to all my soaring friends. Still, I estimate that only about one-third of the pilots I know post their flights. Which is a pity, because those who do NOT post tend to be the more experienced and wiser pilots. See any connection? You can count the "stages" in the "process", but I do not see how you can count on the last one being acceptance. Many did not accept OLC to begin with and still fewer will if the current trends with SSA-OLC continue. The rate of participation will be further diminishing, as will be the value of the OLC to the rest of us. Pity. Once again, U.S.A. shows the way. Thank you. -- Yuliy Gerchikov "Doug Haluza" wrote in message oups.com... This is cross posted from the SSA Home News & Information General News: As the days get shorter as the end of the soaring season nears, the SSA-OLC Committee has been receiving complaints about flights after sunset without required aircraft lighting. Although the requirements for night flight begin at twilight for pilots in the US, the requirements for aircraft lighting begin at sunset. Gliders without approved lighting must land, and move clear of lighted runways and taxiways before sunset. IGC flight logs contain a GPS time stamp which is the most exact time standard readily available. So, violations of this requirement are quite plain to see in these logs. The SSA Board was concerned about flight logs with obvious violations damaging the sport if they were posted in the public record of the OLC. So the board adopted a policy disqualifying such flights from the OLC, as well as FAI awards such as badges and records. See: http://www.ssa.org/download/SSA%20Po...Violations.pdf The SSA-OLC Committee prefers that pilots voluntarily remove the flights, rather than having them removed by an admin. We have contacted a number of pilots to request this, and they are currently in various stages of the 5-step grieving process (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance). You can avoid this emotional roller coaster by planning and executing your flights to be complete before sunset, unless you have approved night lighting. You can't just duct tape a flashlight to the nose for night flight. The requirements for navigation lights are very specific to color, intensity and direction. If your aircraft is equipped with approved night lighting, and it was used for flight after sunset, you must put a note in the comments section of the OLC claim form explaining this. We also have been advised of flight claims that show altitudes in the log well above the 18,000' MSL limit for Class-A airspace in the US. The IGC logger altitude is subject to a number of errors, which could total to several hundred feet. We are currently reviewing with the pilots a number of flights that appear to exceed even a reasonable error budget. Note that unless your flight reference altimeter has been properly calibrated for IFR flight, and is set to a current ATC altimeter setting, you will need to allow an extra buffer below 18,000' MSL indicated altitude to account for possible errors. If you have an encounter with an IFR aircraft with calibrated altitude references, the calibrated references and ATC logs will be used to determine your actual altitude in any subsequent investigation. Again, if your flight log shows flight above 18,000 MSL, after correcting for field elevation at takeoff, you will need to provide an explanation in the comments section of the OLC claim form explaining this. The same requirement applies to entering special use airspace. This will immediately answer any questions that may concern other competitors, or anyone else reviewing your flight log in the future. Finally, if you note a flight that appears to be questionable, do not speculate in public forums (like news://rec.avation.soaring). Contact the pilot privately if you can. If the flight is in the US, contact the SSA-OLC Committee by email at olcatssadotorg. Or use the complaint tab on the OLC Web header to initiate a partner check. Doug Haluza SSA-OLC Admin |
#14
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End of Season Sunset Warning for SSA-OLC Participants
Doug, the sunset rule may have been on the books, but not on olc rules
until recently. You decided to enforce it retroactively, which is unfair to say the least. I guess this is one way to win a contest, when someone is catching up - remove their flights... simple fact is that OLC was great until SSA took over. It is simply a shame the way it has been administered. You managed to upset your most loyal promoters and contestants. I propose a new rule for next season, each olc participants must be checked for drugs after each flight. Ramy Doug Haluza wrote: Yuily, you need to move past the bargaining phase of the grieving process, and accept that you must remove these flights from the OLC because they make us look bad as a group. You could petition the SSA Board to change the FAR policy, but you are not likely to get a warm response. In fact, given the present situation, you are not likely to get any response for some time. As far as changing the rules, the sunset rule has been on the books for longer than almost anyone can remember. The SSA did not make this rule, they just decided not to ignore it. It is unfortunate that the SSA FAR policy statement is not dated, but I received a copy of it on January 20, 2006 when I was researching my presentation for the Knauff & Grove March Soaring Seminar in State College, PA. It is also covered in the presentation slides which were posted to the OLC site on April 1. See: http://www2.onlinecontest.org/olcphp...c=olc-i&spr=en It is unfortunate that you did not see this information. But most reasonable people find it intuitively obvious that you cannot get credit for breaking the rules. And some of them have been complaining about this as well. Is it reasonable to allow ignorace to become an unfair advantage? Yuliy Gerchikov wrote: Doug, May I make some suggestions? (1) Do not change OLC rules mid-season. (2) If you insist on checking all traces for certain violations, do it at the time of claim -- automatically -- and reject those that do not pass, there and then. Going back through the season and arbitrarily hand-picking "bad" flights seems like huge waste of time -- yours and everybody else's. More generally, I can't help but notice that OLC has become a much worse place since SSA got involved. It started with a huge ugly STATIONARY banner on top of SSA-OLC page that serves no good purpose but to generate advertisement income for SSA at the expense of users' screen space. I checked other national OLCs, and the ONLY three out of 29 that do this tasteless disservice to their users are AT, FR and US. Now this policing of the traces. OLC used to be an extremely valuable tool for sharing and learning. I used to rave about it and promote it to all my soaring friends. Still, I estimate that only about one-third of the pilots I know post their flights. Which is a pity, because those who do NOT post tend to be the more experienced and wiser pilots. See any connection? You can count the "stages" in the "process", but I do not see how you can count on the last one being acceptance. Many did not accept OLC to begin with and still fewer will if the current trends with SSA-OLC continue. The rate of participation will be further diminishing, as will be the value of the OLC to the rest of us. Pity. Once again, U.S.A. shows the way. Thank you. -- Yuliy Gerchikov "Doug Haluza" wrote in message oups.com... This is cross posted from the SSA Home News & Information General News: As the days get shorter as the end of the soaring season nears, the SSA-OLC Committee has been receiving complaints about flights after sunset without required aircraft lighting. Although the requirements for night flight begin at twilight for pilots in the US, the requirements for aircraft lighting begin at sunset. Gliders without approved lighting must land, and move clear of lighted runways and taxiways before sunset. IGC flight logs contain a GPS time stamp which is the most exact time standard readily available. So, violations of this requirement are quite plain to see in these logs. The SSA Board was concerned about flight logs with obvious violations damaging the sport if they were posted in the public record of the OLC. So the board adopted a policy disqualifying such flights from the OLC, as well as FAI awards such as badges and records. See: http://www.ssa.org/download/SSA%20Po...Violations.pdf The SSA-OLC Committee prefers that pilots voluntarily remove the flights, rather than having them removed by an admin. We have contacted a number of pilots to request this, and they are currently in various stages of the 5-step grieving process (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance). You can avoid this emotional roller coaster by planning and executing your flights to be complete before sunset, unless you have approved night lighting. You can't just duct tape a flashlight to the nose for night flight. The requirements for navigation lights are very specific to color, intensity and direction. If your aircraft is equipped with approved night lighting, and it was used for flight after sunset, you must put a note in the comments section of the OLC claim form explaining this. We also have been advised of flight claims that show altitudes in the log well above the 18,000' MSL limit for Class-A airspace in the US. The IGC logger altitude is subject to a number of errors, which could total to several hundred feet. We are currently reviewing with the pilots a number of flights that appear to exceed even a reasonable error budget. Note that unless your flight reference altimeter has been properly calibrated for IFR flight, and is set to a current ATC altimeter setting, you will need to allow an extra buffer below 18,000' MSL indicated altitude to account for possible errors. If you have an encounter with an IFR aircraft with calibrated altitude references, the calibrated references and ATC logs will be used to determine your actual altitude in any subsequent investigation. Again, if your flight log shows flight above 18,000 MSL, after correcting for field elevation at takeoff, you will need to provide an explanation in the comments section of the OLC claim form explaining this. The same requirement applies to entering special use airspace. This will immediately answer any questions that may concern other competitors, or anyone else reviewing your flight log in the future. Finally, if you note a flight that appears to be questionable, do not speculate in public forums (like news://rec.avation.soaring). Contact the pilot privately if you can. If the flight is in the US, contact the SSA-OLC Committee by email at olcatssadotorg. Or use the complaint tab on the OLC Web header to initiate a partner check. Doug Haluza SSA-OLC Admin |
#15
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End of Season Sunset Warning for SSA-OLC Participants
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#16
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End of Season Sunset Warning for SSA-OLC Participants
Looking at the cover of the current Soaring, Eric M. is clearly
operating in violation of CFR 14 Section 45.25. If he's submitted any flights to OLC this year, does he have to remove them all? 8^) Marc |
#17
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End of Season Sunset Warning for SSA-OLC Participants
Marc Ramsey wrote: Looking at the cover of the current Soaring, Eric M. is clearly operating in violation of CFR 14 Section 45.25. If he's submitted any flights to OLC this year, does he have to remove them all? 8^) Marc Well, actually you bring up a very good point with this, whether you meant to or not. This is analgous to the problem we are dealing with in the OLC. By publishing this photo, on the cover of Soaring no less, it damages the group by reinforcing incorrect behavior. Not only does it show non-glider pilots that we don't do the right thing (even when it's just as easy to do it right), it also shows glider pilots the wrong thing to do, which they may try to emulate. Now as far as OLC goes, there is no sporting aspect to the N-number placement. Putting N-numbers on the gear doors does not provide any meaningful competitive advantage. And it does not show up in the flight log. So we would not be concerned with this in the OLC. But I would expect that if the pilot showed up at a contest with this, and someone noted the problem, a reasonable pilot would correct the problem immediately. I think it would be unreasonable to take the position that since nobody specificaly told them in advance that they must display proper N-numbers, that they don't have to fix it until next year. |
#18
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End of Season Sunset Warning for SSA-OLC Participants
I can't be sure from the cover photo that there is not a set of
numbers placed on the fuselage, perhaps a little above the equator. What interests me more is the question: has Eric just done a ribbon-cut pass? There is SOMETHING hanging below the cockpit of his Discus that looks like a ribbon draped over both sides of the nose. Jack --- Doug Haluza wrote: Marc Ramsey wrote: Looking at the cover of the current Soaring, Eric M. is clearly operating in violation of CFR 14 Section 45.25. If he's submitted any flights to OLC this year, does he have to remove them all? 8^) Marc Well, actually you bring up a very good point with this, whether you meant to or not. This is analgous to the problem we are dealing with in the OLC. By publishing this photo, on the cover of Soaring no less, it damages the group by reinforcing incorrect behavior. Not only does it show non-glider pilots that we don't do the right thing (even when it's just as easy to do it right), it also shows glider pilots the wrong thing to do, which they may try to emulate. Now as far as OLC goes, there is no sporting aspect to the N-number placement. Putting N-numbers on the gear doors does not provide any meaningful competitive advantage. And it does not show up in the flight log. So we would not be concerned with this in the OLC. But I would expect that if the pilot showed up at a contest with this, and someone noted the problem, a reasonable pilot would correct the problem immediately. I think it would be unreasonable to take the position that since nobody specificaly told them in advance that they must display proper N-numbers, that they don't have to fix it until next year. |
#19
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End of Season Sunset Warning for SSA-OLC Participants
588 wrote:
I can't be sure from the cover photo that there is not a set of numbers placed on the fuselage, perhaps a little above the equator. Yes, that must be it. Funny how you can see the Discus 2 lettering just fine, though... What interests me more is the question: has Eric just done a ribbon-cut pass? There is SOMETHING hanging below the cockpit of his Discus that looks like a ribbon draped over both sides of the nose. Might be some sort of secret thermal detection gear... |
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