Too many pilots in the cockpit spoil the landing...

"Greg Esres" wrote in message
...
It's a convention in some aircraft insurance policies, IIRC.

No doubt, but this wasn't an insurance company report.

The poster showed a common misperception that the left seat pilot is
automatically the PIC, since the report did not give any indication as
to who was PIC. I was just doing my part to dispel that notion. ;-)

I hope you are not referring to my post because, as I stated, the "left
seat" was used only to identify one person from the other.





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"Peter R." wrote in message
...
Don't OWT's usually deal with quick, undocumented home remedies

My interpretation of the term is more broad than that, including things that
I also consider an urban legend. The American Heritage Dictionary defines
"old wives' tale" this way: "A superstitious belief or story belonging to
traditional folklore".

I suppose that would exclude the CFI/backseat story based on one's
definition of "traditional folklore", but certainly not just because it's
more of a story than a briefly stated "home remedy".

Personally, I find the terms somewhat interchangeable and certainly not
different enough to warrant correcting someone in a newsgroup. But I
suppose if someone wanted to be picky, it could be debated.

Pete

Personally, I find the terms somewhat interchangeable

I did pause for about 2 seconds to decide which term I was going to
use, but I decided that "OWT" was more of an aviation-related term
than was "urban legend". U/L seems more appropriate for the common
people; you know, those that don't fly airplanes. ;-)

I hope you are not referring to my post because, as I stated, the
"left seat" was used only to identify one person from the other.

I was, because you said "As PIC, is the left seat pilot responsible
for wrestling..."

There was nothing in the original post to indicate that the left seat
pilot was PIC.

OK, if I wrote, "As PIC, is the person in the red shirt responsible for...."
am I implying that people with red shirts should always be considered PIC??

I KNOW you don't have to be in the left seat to be PIC. OK, here's my
question stated differently, "As PIC, are you responsible for making sure
the person with the other set of controls keeps their hands off the
yoke/stick?" How's that?



"Greg Esres" wrote in message
...
I hope you are not referring to my post because, as I stated, the
"left seat" was used only to identify one person from the other.

I was, because you said "As PIC, is the left seat pilot responsible
for wrestling..."

There was nothing in the original post to indicate that the left seat
pilot was PIC.






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"Greg Esres" wrote in message
...
Personally, I find the terms somewhat interchangeable

I did pause for about 2 seconds to decide which term I was going to
use, but I decided that "OWT" was more of an aviation-related term
than was "urban legend".

I agree with that point, but the funny thing is the main reason I agree is
that there are so many OWTs in aviation. Ack. I wonder how many other
industries are similarly rife with misinformation.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote:
...there are so many OWTs in aviation.

"Getting on the step" springs to mind. My father believed that one, and
nothing could budge him. He used to cuss an A-20 pilot he'd flown with
(Dad was a gunner) for not getting on the step and thus falling behind
the formation, "...even though all the other pilots told him how to do
it!"

Ack. I wonder how many other
industries are similarly rife with misinformation.

The HVAC industry is full of OWT's.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:25:55 -0500, "Marco Leon"
mleon(at)optonline.net wrote in Message-Id:
:

I KNOW you don't have to be in the left seat to be PIC. OK, here's my
question stated differently, "As PIC, are you responsible for making sure
the person with the other set of controls keeps their hands off the
yoke/stick?" How's that?


That's an interesting question. I hadn't really thought about it
before.

I have been guilty of nudging the controls occasionally when I
perceive something I don't think the PIC has. I would hope someone
would lookout for me the same way should I attempt a maneuver that
places the aircraft outside comfortable limits or the published
performance envelope or recommended parameters. However, it does blur
the responsibility for commanding the flight.

A more professional approach would involve strictly verbal
communication phrases agreed upon before departure. Although, two
pilots each sitting at a set of controls could explicitly agree to
permit each other to provide some control input when they thought it
appropriate and helpful. For example, in a PA28-235 on final, I'll
activate the electric fuel pumps for the PIC if he hasn't gotten
around to it. It seems prudent and helpful. I haven't had any
complaints so far, but it happens very infrequently considering how
seldom I fly as SIC.

I'll have to give it some more thought...


I copied this out of a magazine several years ago when I was often
flying with another pilot:



Cockpit Resource Management


CRM is the effective use of all resources - hardware, software,
leadership, and humanware - to achieve safe and efficient flight
operation.

Don't divide duties as they are on most airlines. There, the
pilot becomes too dependent on a copilot, because the pilot simply
flys the aircraft, while the copilot does everything else - radios,
navigation, checklists, and backing up the pilot as to proper
altitudes and headings.

The CRM philosophy puts the onus on the pilot for communications,
checklists, and decision making. Decisions are based on the concerns
of the less comfortable pilot. The copilot handles navigation,
cross-checks the pilot's communication and navigation frequencies for
an instrument approach, and assures that the altitude requirements are
met at the final approach fix and at minimums. The copilot still has
plenty to do, managing the aircraft's loran, RNAV radio, or handheld
GPS moving map display that is used as a backup. In addition, the
copilot scans for other traffic, keeps a running check on fields in
which to land - just in case - and keeps track of the nearest airport.
The copilot knows s/he is to support and backup the pilot and offer
help in emergency situations.

Pre-takeoff briefing is important for any flight; it can be
abbreviated, however, when another pilot is aboard. It can be as
simple as thinking out loud. If you expect the other pilot to help
with the flight, say so before takeoff. Spend several minutes before
the flight explaining to the non-pilot passenger how to control the
aircraft and how to communicate. Once in the air, spend a few minutes
letting the passenger fly. It is fun for the passenger and gives the
pilot another resource to use in case of a medical emergency.

61.3 says the PIC is responsible for the safe conduct of the flight.


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:25:55 -0500, "Marco Leon"
mleon(at)optonline.net wrote in Message-Id:
:

I KNOW you don't have to be in the left seat to be PIC. OK, here's my
question stated differently, "As PIC, are you responsible for making sure
the person with the other set of controls keeps their hands off the
yoke/stick?" How's that?


That's an interesting question. I hadn't really thought about it
before.

I have been guilty of nudging the controls occasionally when I
perceive something I don't think the PIC has. I would hope someone
would lookout for me the same way should I attempt a maneuver that
places the aircraft outside comfortable limits or the published
performance envelope or recommended parameters. However, it does blur
the responsibility for commanding the flight.

A more professional approach would involve strictly verbal
communication phrases agreed upon before departure. Although, two
pilots each sitting at a set of controls could explicitly agree to
permit each other to provide some control input when they thought it
appropriate and helpful. For example, in a PA28-235 on final, I'll
activate the electric fuel pumps for the PIC if he hasn't gotten
around to it. It seems prudent and helpful. I haven't had any
complaints so far, but it happens very infrequently considering how
seldom I fly as SIC.

I'll have to give it some more thought...


I copied this out of a magazine several years ago when I was often
flying with another pilot:



Cockpit Resource Management


CRM is the effective use of all resources - hardware, software,
leadership, and humanware - to achieve safe and efficient flight
operation.

Don't divide duties as they are on most airlines. There, the
pilot becomes too dependent on a copilot, because the pilot simply
flys the aircraft, while the copilot does everything else - radios,
navigation, checklists, and backing up the pilot as to proper
altitudes and headings.

The CRM philosophy puts the onus on the pilot for communications,
checklists, and decision making. Decisions are based on the concerns
of the less comfortable pilot. The copilot handles navigation,
cross-checks the pilot's communication and navigation frequencies for
an instrument approach, and assures that the altitude requirements are
met at the final approach fix and at minimums. The copilot still has
plenty to do, managing the aircraft's loran, RNAV radio, or handheld
GPS moving map display that is used as a backup. In addition, the
copilot scans for other traffic, keeps a running check on fields in
which to land - just in case - and keeps track of the nearest airport.
The copilot knows s/he is to support and backup the pilot and offer
help in emergency situations.

Pre-takeoff briefing is important for any flight; it can be
abbreviated, however, when another pilot is aboard. It can be as
simple as thinking out loud. If you expect the other pilot to help
with the flight, say so before takeoff. Spend several minutes before
the flight explaining to the non-pilot passenger how to control the
aircraft and how to communicate. Once in the air, spend a few minutes
letting the passenger fly. It is fun for the passenger and gives the
pilot another resource to use in case of a medical emergency.

Peter Duniho wrote:
"Icebound" wrote in message
le.rogers.com...

I suspect the concept of a CFI riding in the backset, minding his own
business, and being charged with a violation is an OWT.

I think you mean "urban legend"


What's the difference between an old wives' tale and an urban legend?



An OWT involves a solution for a problem. The solution is scientifically
lacking or the problem does not exist.

An urban legend is a widely-reported occurrance or existance that never
happened or existed.







--
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the
courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
--- Serenity Prayer