Freelance CFIs and plane rentals??

"Richard Hertz" wrote in message . net...
If you can't find an FBO to rent the plane for this, you may be able to find
plane owners who rent planes. It is not uncommon.

You will probably have to beat the bushes a bit more to find them , but they
are out there.

But very, very expensive. Figure an extra $6000/year in insurance.

(Andrew Sarangan) wrote in message . com...
Your friend can rent the airplane from the FBO and give you dual
instruction without any restriction.

Very unlikely. I've never seen a club, FBO that didn't explicitly
state that only club approved CFIs can give instruction. Most also
prohibit flying from the right seat just to ensure you aren't giving
instruction.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...
If you do find a private individual who is willing to rent his plane to you
for instruction, be sure to carry your own renter's insurance.

I doubt this will work. First of all the owner will have to add
insurance to allow the student to be training in his airplane. For my
plane it adds about $6000/year with a prohibitation on solo. Most
companies do not want to ensure commercial instruction insurance on
planes unless there are at least 3 airplanes on the policy.

I wish this myth of buying renters insurance would die. A renter's
policy ONLY covers situations where you can PROVE the renter was at
fault. The owner's policy will only cover those situations that the
policy allows for. I guarantee your policy only allows named insureds
to receive instruction.

So, if the "student" were flying the plane and the landing gear broke
on its own and totaled the plane, there would be NO insurance. The
student's renters' insurance would say, "Prove the student caused
this". The owners insurance would say "Prove a named insured or open
pilot was piloting" (almost all open pilot polices require at least a
private and sometimes an instrument rating).

My policy (AIG ) makes no distinction between who is PIC. It simply
says only a named insured can be "piloting" the plane. This means
there is no insurance if they think anyone else touched the controls.

-Robert

"BTIZ" wrote in message news:oYf_b.30140$tM5.14018@fed1read04...
owners renting out their aircraft for instruction... may not have the "open
pilot policy" that allows for student solo operations..


Private owners are not likely to have insurance that covers this at
all. Open pilot would apply to someone else flying your plane, but
does not generally extend to a rental arrangement. This would take
the plane out of the business/pleasure class of insurance and into the
commercial (read: big bucks) class.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
Old myths never die.

Neither do they just fade away.

Not sure what you mean here. Who pays for the insurance. From what I saw
the rates for private pilot rentals for lessons was very comparable to the
local FBOs. (a little lower actually)

I am not talking about a person who has his own plane and rents it out once
in a while - rather a person with one more who owns them primarily as a
business proposition. So how is the individual owner's insurance more than
the FBO and how is that going to make it more expensive?


"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
om...
"Richard Hertz" wrote in message
. net...
If you can't find an FBO to rent the plane for this, you may be able to
find
plane owners who rent planes. It is not uncommon.

You will probably have to beat the bushes a bit more to find them , but
they
are out there.

But very, very expensive. Figure an extra $6000/year in insurance.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
The problem is usually one of insurance. The FBO's insurer insists that
instruction be given only by instructors employed by the FBO. The FBO may
also object to providing an airplane for an instructor that it perceives
is
competing with its own business.

If you do find a private individual who is willing to rent his plane to
you
for instruction, be sure to carry your own renter's insurance. The
airplane
is required to have 100 hour inspections if used for rental.

Wrong.



Flying clubs often welcome free-lance instructors. You and your instructor
could consider joining such a club.

Actually buying an airplane and learning to fly in it can be cheaper than
renting. I have known people who did this and who ended up selling the
plane
for more than they paid for it.

This is true only if you end up selling it. Buying an airplane is not a
cost-effective way to get flight time. Renting is cheaper.

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
om...
"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
If you do find a private individual who is willing to rent his plane to
you
for instruction, be sure to carry your own renter's insurance.

I doubt this will work. First of all the owner will have to add
insurance to allow the student to be training in his airplane. For my
plane it adds about $6000/year with a prohibitation on solo. Most
companies do not want to ensure commercial instruction insurance on
planes unless there are at least 3 airplanes on the policy.

I don't know whether or not it will "work," but I know of students who rent
from a non-FBO. This person had a few C172s and rented them out at
competitive rates.

So how can FBOs afford it?


I wish this myth of buying renters insurance would die. A renter's
policy ONLY covers situations where you can PROVE the renter was at
fault. The owner's policy will only cover those situations that the
policy allows for. I guarantee your policy only allows named insureds
to receive instruction.

So, if the "student" were flying the plane and the landing gear broke
on its own and totaled the plane, there would be NO insurance. The
student's renters' insurance would say, "Prove the student caused
this". The owners insurance would say "Prove a named insured or open
pilot was piloting" (almost all open pilot polices require at least a
private and sometimes an instrument rating).

My policy (AIG ) makes no distinction between who is PIC. It simply
says only a named insured can be "piloting" the plane. This means
there is no insurance if they think anyone else touched the controls.


I can have an unnamed pilot - but I assume you mean not being instructed.

-Robert

(Robert M. Gary) wrote in message . com...
(Andrew Sarangan) wrote in message . com...
Your friend can rent the airplane from the FBO and give you dual
instruction without any restriction.

Very unlikely. I've never seen a club, FBO that didn't explicitly
state that only club approved CFIs can give instruction. Most also
prohibit flying from the right seat just to ensure you aren't giving
instruction.

I've seen that too, but I don't see how they can make the distinction
between flight instruction and taking a passenger flying.

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
om...
(Sam) wrote in message
. com...

As far as I know, there are no FBOs in the U.S. that have CFI's as
employees. We are almost always "1099" not "W-2". I think this helps
divorse the liability of having employees.

I am an employee of PAVCO as a CFI and get a W-2.

A lot of places that claim that their instructors are 'independent'
contractors are asking to get bitten by their state labor regulators. Some
states allow anyone who claims that they are a contractor to be treated as
one, but some others get downright nasty.

There is no liability protection in having contractors instead of employees.
It is a tax and labor issue. Employers have to pay employer taxes for their
employees and withhold income taxes and deposit them on a regular basis.
They have to pay their employees minimum wage. They have to pay their
employees for all work they do. Both states and the federal government take
a dim view of businesses that attempt to evade taxes and labor laws by
calling their employees 'independent' contractors.

If a CFI was really an independent contractor he could not be required to
perform any additional duties, could not be told how to do his job, could
not be required to use company planes, could not be forbidden to give flight
instruction on his own time or at other FBOs, etc. Some states require
anyone working as a contractor to have a license or otherwise register as a
business.

The first time a 'contractor' CFI gets hurt on the job and files a workman's
compensation claim (or even inadvertently admits to hospital personnel that
he was injured on the job) then the state is going to come looking for back
taxes, penalties, interest, and a real good reason why this CFI should not
be eligible for compensation at the employer's expense. A good argument can
be made that calling your instructors contractors actually increases your
liability exposure a great deal. Employees are easier to insure and much
easier to manage.