Midair near Minden

What soaring pilots have been talking about for some time has happened.
Yesterday, in startling clear weather, with visibility measured in
dozens of miles or more, a Hawker jet ran into a sailplane at about
13,500' (5,000' AGL or more) some 10 miles east of Minden airport. The
sailplane pilot had come from Japanto enjoy several days of the world's
very best soaring. He was not disappointed: he towed into the air
around 1:00 p.m. and flew with several other pilots some fifty or so
miles south. The group of sailplane pilots was just returning to
Minden several hours later, talking to each other on the radio, when
they noticed the Japanese pilot was no longer answering their calls.

Shortly thereafter a Hawker jet landed at Carson City with pieces of a
sailplane wing embedded into its nose. The Hawker pilot said he had
hit a glider about 40 miles south. Local search and rescue groups were
called out and the sailplane wreckage was found on the east slope of
the Pine Nuts around 6:00 p.m. A LifeFlight helicopter was flying
through the area (totally unrelated to this search) and headed for the
wreckage. He saw a parachute on the ground and set down near that.
The pilot was not in the parachute, so all of us following the search
on radios on the ground figured the pilot was walking out. Sure
enough, he was found just before 7:00 p.m., walking out with minor cuts
and bruises.

This story ended with lots of sighs of relief but it could have been a
real tragedy. This was a totally VFR situation, where see and be seen
should have been in effect. I don't know yet what equipment the
sailplane had on board, but I know it was a very recently built plane.
The sailplane pilot was experienced and in good physical shape.

I don't know anything about the Hawker crew or what the NTSB will find
about their operation. My fear, though, is that the talking heads who
form much of Americans' opinions will start speaking out about the lack
of sophisticated equipment on board the sailplane. You know the kind:
"if that glider had an encoding transponder on it, this never would
have happened."

When you hear that, please point out to the speaker that the sailplane
pilot was following all the regulations, was flying in great visibility
near an airport that is maked on sectionals with a glider symbol and is
known worldwide for its fantastic soaring, and that the Hawker ran into
the saiplane, not the other way around.

And then offer up a little prayer that this won't happen again soon --
or to anyone you know. Fred

Fred,

If you have a chance to speak to either pilot, please pass along a
hearty 'Well done' from at least one other who cannot possibly imagine
what either of them must have gone through to get down as well as they
did.

Bob
Canada




Fred wrote:
What soaring pilots have been talking about for some time has happened.
Snip

Fred wrote:
What soaring pilots have been talking about for some time has happened.
Yesterday, in startling clear weather, with visibility measured in
dozens of miles or more, a Hawker jet ran into a sailplane at about
13,500' (5,000' AGL or more) some 10 miles east of Minden airport. The
sailplane pilot had come from Japanto enjoy several days of the world's
very best soaring. He was not disappointed: he towed into the air
around 1:00 p.m. and flew with several other pilots some fifty or so
miles south. The group of sailplane pilots was just returning to
Minden several hours later, talking to each other on the radio, when
they noticed the Japanese pilot was no longer answering their calls.

Shortly thereafter a Hawker jet landed at Carson City with pieces of a
sailplane wing embedded into its nose. The Hawker pilot said he had
hit a glider about 40 miles south. Local search and rescue groups were
called out and the sailplane wreckage was found on the east slope of
the Pine Nuts around 6:00 p.m. A LifeFlight helicopter was flying
through the area (totally unrelated to this search) and headed for the
wreckage. He saw a parachute on the ground and set down near that.
The pilot was not in the parachute, so all of us following the search
on radios on the ground figured the pilot was walking out. Sure
enough, he was found just before 7:00 p.m., walking out with minor cuts
and bruises.

This story ended with lots of sighs of relief but it could have been a
real tragedy. This was a totally VFR situation, where see and be seen
should have been in effect. I don't know yet what equipment the
sailplane had on board, but I know it was a very recently built plane.
The sailplane pilot was experienced and in good physical shape.

I don't know anything about the Hawker crew or what the NTSB will find
about their operation. My fear, though, is that the talking heads who
form much of Americans' opinions will start speaking out about the lack
of sophisticated equipment on board the sailplane. You know the kind:
"if that glider had an encoding transponder on it, this never would
have happened."

When you hear that, please point out to the speaker that the sailplane
pilot was following all the regulations, was flying in great visibility
near an airport that is maked on sectionals with a glider symbol and is
known worldwide for its fantastic soaring, and that the Hawker ran into
the saiplane, not the other way around.

And then offer up a little prayer that this won't happen again soon --
or to anyone you know. Fred

First of all...I am extremely glad everybody involved in that accident
is alive. Second, something will come out of this, I just have a bad
feeling; I don't think that the FAA or NTSB will mandate any new
regulations, I am worrying about the reaction of the local airport mgr.
and his accomplices to curb soaring in Minden even more or maybe
completely ban it. I really hope it will not happen....

Jacek Kobiesa
Washington State

Fred wrote:
My fear, though, is that the talking heads who
form much of Americans' opinions will start speaking out about the lack
of sophisticated equipment on board the sailplane. You know the kind:
"if that glider had an encoding transponder on it, this never would
have happened."

When you hear that, please point out to the speaker that the sailplane
pilot was following all the regulations, was flying in great visibility
near an airport that is maked on sectionals with a glider symbol and is
known worldwide for its fantastic soaring, and that the Hawker ran into
the saiplane, not the other way around.


It's GREAT that the sailplane pilot was able to safely jump out, and
the jet make an emergency landing at Carson. But I too believe that
there will be increased pressure to take away airspace near Minden.
Pressure has been building since the Reno airport became an ARSA (we
called it AIDS, it was renamed class C).

In my limited experience in biz jets, it's not uncommon to see both
pilots simultaneously eyes down. That puts the lookout responsibility
on the instruments. Great assumptions are being made about other
aircraft using Mode C. Outside Class A that's irresponsible behavior.
The comment should be: "If the jet pilot looked out the window, this
never would have happened".

During one charter flight I remember going into the cockpit to see
both P1 and P2 doing their timesheets on PDAs. We were climbing through
an area that gliders frequent.
I keep this in mind while flying.

Remember "Geese at 18,000 feet"? Geese don't have transponders either.

Jim

Here are links with pictures.

http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...0365/1144/NEWS

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?C...-acbbb7a5f04e&

Its interesting to note that the perception is that the glider crashed
into the jet.

Hmmmm......60+ foot span glider doing 50 mph in perfect VFR conditions
at 16,000' above the Minden Area......vs Hawker Jet with 50' span and 2
pilots traveling over 300mph.

So it was the glider that initiated the accident, as opposed to
stringently trained and licensed profesional airline pilots in perfect
VFR conditions outside of controlled airspace that ran down another
aircraft?

See how the public perceives us!!!!!

We are apparently a hazard to comercial aviation.

This should be really interesting, as precidents will be set through
the determination of fault in this accident.

Thanks god hundreds of passengers were not killed, and no one infact
was even seriously injured......but it will be a wakeup call to the FAA
and you can bet they will be obligated to take action to prevent this
sort of thing, or worse, from happening again.

Does anyone know whether or not the glider was transponder/mode C
equipped?

Any thoughts about a Reno Class Bravo?

John O. Graybill

I am sure that Chip Gardner is thinking that it is deja vu all over
again. He had a Navy jet (A-4? A-6?) eat 3 feet of his wingtip near
Mt. Palomar about 20 years ago.

Gardner managed to fy back and land at the gliderport at Hemet and the
jet limped back to Miramar NAS with a fiberglass wingtip lodged in one
of his engines.

I remember at the time that Chip said that at the speeds they fly, we
go from being a speck on the windshield to a full target in less than
16 seconds.

John O. Graybill wrote:
Does anyone know whether or not the glider was transponder/mode C
equipped?

I don't know for sure, but unlikely, given what I know of the owners and
the circumstances.

Any thoughts about a Reno Class Bravo?

Yes. It would pretty much eliminate cross-country soaring out of Air
Sailing and Truckee, and seriously impair soaring out of Minden. If the
accident took place within 30 miles of Reno, I expect this option will
get some discussion...

Marc

A couple of small corrections here. Chip was flying on Hot Springs
Mountain just east of Warner Springs. The jet was on or near a low
level training route. After the collision, Chip was still able to climb
the LS4 and proposed flying back to Hemet. He was convinced by others
flying nearby that observed the damage, that maybe it would be more
prudent to land at Warner Springs.

Bob

raulb wrote:
I am sure that Chip Gardner is thinking that it is deja vu all over
again. He had a Navy jet (A-4? A-6?) eat 3 feet of his wingtip near
Mt. Palomar about 20 years ago.

Gardner managed to fy back and land at the gliderport at Hemet and the
jet limped back to Miramar NAS with a fiberglass wingtip lodged in one
of his engines.

I remember at the time that Chip said that at the speeds they fly, we
go from being a speck on the windshield to a full target in less than
16 seconds.

"Robert Backer" wrote in message
news:IH0Jg.18249$RD.7286@fed1read08...
A couple of small corrections here. Chip was flying on Hot Springs
Mountain just east of Warner Springs. The jet was on or near a low level
training route. After the collision, Chip was still able to climb the LS4
and proposed flying back to Hemet. He was convinced by others flying
nearby that observed the damage, that maybe it would be more prudent to
land at Warner Springs.

Bob

raulb wrote:
I am sure that Chip Gardner is thinking that it is deja vu all over
again. He had a Navy jet (A-4? A-6?) eat 3 feet of his wingtip near
Mt. Palomar about 20 years ago.

Gardner managed to fy back and land at the gliderport at Hemet and the
jet limped back to Miramar NAS with a fiberglass wingtip lodged in one
of his engines.

I remember at the time that Chip said that at the speeds they fly, we
go from being a speck on the windshield to a full target in less than
16 seconds.


Did they buy Lotto tickets afterwards bloody lucky I say.