Tales Of The Bloody Triangle

wrote on 2/5/2021 5:55 PM:
On Friday, February 5, 2021 at 3:20:30 PM UTC-5, John Good wrote:
Should east coast triangles that use the ridge be discounted ... ?

I recall a long-ago comment from Wally Scott (probably the all-time master of the downwind dash). He felt that the value of the 1000-km Diplome was being watered down by flights that used ridge and wave. He suggested that maybe these should be recognized in a different category from flights done only in thermal lift.

Tom Knauff gave a cogent reply, along these lines: "It will be time to listen to Wally on this subject when he starts flying his long straight-out flights upwind, instead of downwind."

Wally did much more than downwind dashes, Wally was absolutely correct when it came to assessing the value of the ridge flight vs thermal and straight out flights. I met Wally back in the 80's, a true gentleman and avid glider pilot.

I don't see how downwind dashes is inherently more difficult or more worthy of admiration than
long ridge flights. Wally lived in an area ideal for downwind thermal dashes, and I'm guessing
if he had lived near Karl and Knauff, he would have flown some amazing ridge flights, and might
have thought "dirty downwind dashes" were diluting the value of a 1000k diplome. Why not say
using a Open class glider (which he did) instead of a 1-26 for the downwind dashes was diluting
the 1000k diplome?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

No... But they might get you a close up view of an F-16!

Dan
5J

On 2/5/21 8:26 PM, AS wrote:
Would crossing international borders or even inter-continental flights earn any bonus points?

On Saturday, February 6, 2021 at 10:41:40 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:


Dan
5J
On 2/5/21 8:26 PM, AS wrote:
Would crossing international borders or even inter-continental flights earn any bonus points?
No... But they might get you a close up view of an F-16!

A lot has changed since you were frozen .... ;-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et-s_GnUNBw

Uli
'AS'

I can add a tidbit about planning bloody long triangles...

I'm now using SkySight weather software. It has some very cool features that have been added. You are able to position turnpoints are arbitrary locations within SkySight and the software will predict your speed around the course as well as advise the optimum start time and thereby inferring from that, whether or not the course is even doable in the day's available weather window. When a day is in prospect, I'm testing triangles in different directions and different geometries to see which produces the best speed. Once I have a general plan then it comes down to fine tuning by massaging the positions of a remote start/finish and the three TPs to get an optimal result. Thereupon, the selected coordinates can be saved within SkySight to a turnpoint file and uploaded to the flight computer for declaration.

If there are several successive days that are in prospect, then I do this speed simulation for each day and pick the best day to fly as I don't generally have the energy to fly long triangles attempt on successive days; I need to pick the best day to make an attempt.

As good as the software is, it's not perfect. No weather tool is able to get over-development and thunderstorms forecasted accurately as to where exactly the blowups will happen. So it's always a bit of a craps shot. It is necessary that the storm index / OD potential not be too high or you are almost certain to be blocked at some point when flying a triangle to declared turnpoints. It is quite different than OLC flying where a storm in one direction just means you change course to fly in the best air. Without that option, declared triangles are surely the toughest to get done.

On Saturday, February 6, 2021 at 2:52:07 PM UTC-5, Steve Koerner wrote:
I can add a tidbit about planning bloody long triangles...

I'm now using SkySight weather software. It has some very cool features that have been added. You are able to position turnpoints are arbitrary locations within SkySight and the software will predict your speed around the course as well as advise the optimum start time and thereby inferring from that, whether or not the course is even doable in the day's available weather window. When a day is in prospect, I'm testing triangles in different directions and different geometries to see which produces the best speed. Once I have a general plan then it comes down to fine tuning by massaging the positions of a remote start/finish and the three TPs to get an optimal result. Thereupon, the selected coordinates can be saved within SkySight to a turnpoint file and uploaded to the flight computer for declaration.

If there are several successive days that are in prospect, then I do this speed simulation for each day and pick the best day to fly as I don't generally have the energy to fly long triangles attempt on successive days; I need to pick the best day to make an attempt.

As good as the software is, it's not perfect. No weather tool is able to get over-development and thunderstorms forecasted accurately as to where exactly the blowups will happen. So it's always a bit of a craps shot. It is necessary that the storm index / OD potential not be too high or you are almost certain to be blocked at some point when flying a triangle to declared turnpoints. It is quite different than OLC flying where a storm in one direction just means you change course to fly in the best air. Without that option, declared triangles are surely the toughest to get done.

Steve, you are absolutely correct about the Bloody Triangle. I sometimes see good flights with little or miniscule triangle values. I have always flown mostly triangles and mostly try to stretch the legs out for a respectable distance. Here in Florida we are somewhat handicapped by lower bases and large bodies of water. Triangles here are very different and I consider more challenging than many other soaring areas. I looked back at one of you triangular flights from past and smiled as I saw three pretty much equal legs, nice job. Bob

Another thing to add to OLC and triangles is that it keeps track of declared triangle fight for the BHC (Barron Hilton Cup). So yet another place to compete on OLC.

Most days I'll declare an ambitious triangle and set it up in the flight computer as an area task with large circles. That way, the computer is keeping track of my progress and if the weather is not as good as expected, I just cut the corners. If it's better than expected, I fly deep into one or both turn areas to get more OLC points, but make sure I get in the OZ for the declared task in order to get the BHC score.

5Z

On Monday, February 8, 2021 at 4:13:28 PM UTC-5, 5Z wrote:
Another thing to add to OLC and triangles is that it keeps track of declared triangle fight for the BHC (Barron Hilton Cup). So yet another place to compete on OLC.

Most days I'll declare an ambitious triangle and set it up in the flight computer as an area task with large circles. That way, the computer is keeping track of my progress and if the weather is not as good as expected, I just cut the corners. If it's better than expected, I fly deep into one or both turn areas to get more OLC points, but make sure I get in the OZ for the declared task in order to get the BHC score.

5Z

This is what really ticks me off even a bit more than the" Apology", Turnpoint circles, at this age am having difficulty seeing where a turnpoint circle is any benefit to a triangular objective. What ever happened to the day when we took our 120 film and waited until the next day for the director to tell you that you did not make the turn. Liberalism has invaded the glider world, now you do not have to reach the turnpoint but just get close, hey, what are they doing, pitching hand grenades, only close counts. Hey, bring back the good ole days, start gate, turnpoint verification and the best guy wins. At this time I must say congratulations to GB for a nice triangle out of the Seminole Lake Motor Glider facility. Finally I see a triangle out of that place. I am so glad that I am having a positive influence on those guys. Bob

Bob,
Boy am I glad I've figured out how to post on here. I sure do appreciate the wisdom you've passed on, even in my green state in soaring. Hopefully this comes through correctly. I'm looking forward to more tows and hopefully a paired flight on an out and back to get my feet wet. I'll be rereading your article from the wave flight in Florida on my way LAX-ATL to stay awake tonight. See ya buddy.

wrote on 2/11/2021 12:56 PM:
On Monday, February 8, 2021 at 4:13:28 PM UTC-5, 5Z wrote:
Another thing to add to OLC and triangles is that it keeps track of declared triangle fight for the BHC (Barron Hilton Cup). So yet another place to compete on OLC.

Most days I'll declare an ambitious triangle and set it up in the flight computer as an area task with large circles. That way, the computer is keeping track of my progress and if the weather is not as good as expected, I just cut the corners. If it's better than expected, I fly deep into one or both turn areas to get more OLC points, but make sure I get in the OZ for the declared task in order to get the BHC score.

5Z

This is what really ticks me off even a bit more than the" Apology", Turnpoint circles, at this age am having difficulty seeing where a turnpoint circle is any benefit to a triangular objective. What ever happened to the day when we took our 120 film and waited until the next day for the director to tell you that you did not make the turn. Liberalism has invaded the glider world, now you do not have to reach the turnpoint but just get close, hey, what are they doing, pitching hand grenades, only close counts. Hey, bring back the good ole days, start gate, turnpoint verification and the best guy wins. At this time I must say congratulations to GB for a nice triangle out of the Seminole Lake Motor Glider facility. Finally I see a triangle out of that place. I am so glad that I am having a positive influence on those guys. Bob

They used turnpoints you had to go to because they had no way of determining where you went
otherwise. They used to have observers at the turnpoints! And even when they began using
cameras, they had to have a point they could recognize on the film. They didn't choose that
turnpoint system because they liked it so much, or because it was "pure", but because they
could make it work. GPS changed what we could make work. Shoot, in the really old days - no
turnpoints! You just flew as far as you could.

You prefer the old system, but the new system has advantages, so that's what we use now. I
liked contest flying better when we had mostly assigned tasks, and we had to go to an actual
point, but that system had it's problems, and I can see changing it.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 5:32:35 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 2/11/2021 12:56 PM:

This is what really ticks me off even a bit more than the" Apology", Turnpoint circles, at this age am having difficulty seeing where a turnpoint circle is any benefit to a triangular objective. What ever happened to the day when we took our 120 film and waited until the next day for the director to tell you that you did not make the turn. Liberalism has invaded the glider world, now you do not have to reach the turnpoint but just get close, hey, what are they doing, pitching hand grenades, only close counts. Hey, bring back the good ole days, start gate, turnpoint verification and the best guy wins. At this time I must say congratulations to GB for a nice triangle out of the Seminole Lake Motor Glider facility. Finally I see a triangle out of that place. I am so glad that I am having a positive influence on those guys. Bob

They used turnpoints you had to go to because they had no way of determining where you went
otherwise. They used to have observers at the turnpoints! And even when they began using
cameras, they had to have a point they could recognize on the film. They didn't choose that
turnpoint system because they liked it so much, or because it was "pure", but because they
could make it work. GPS changed what we could make work. Shoot, in the really old days - no
turnpoints! You just flew as far as you could.

You prefer the old system, but the new system has advantages, so that's what we use now. I
liked contest flying better when we had mostly assigned tasks, and we had to go to an actual
point, but that system had it's problems, and I can see changing it.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

The advantage of the Turn Area Tasks (also called Assigned Area Tasks) is that you can have a handicapped competition (Sports Class) where everybody flies the same (minimum) length of time but the higher performance gliders need to fly a longer distance. That was not possible to arrange before GPS flight logs. Some people don't like TATs or even handicapped competitions at all, so be it. On the other hand many people who want to fly in contests don't want to also have to compete with the purchasing power of richer pilots. Handicaps allow gliders of very different performance and price points to all have fun together. Given the declining number of people flying in contests, anything that attracts more of them is good for everybody.