Variations in soft field landings

Short, soft fields are really pretty easy to get into; they're a bitch to
get out of though

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas

"TheSmokingGnu" wrote in message
...

Flaps down! Unless it's a short, soft field, in which case you should
reconsider using it at all.


TheSmokingGnu

I was taught that way too, even though I assured all instructors that I
could barely afford to fly a fixed gear aircraft and was pretty sure I'd
never be flying a retract.

I've got Johnson bar flaps, so there's really not much chance of confusing
flaps with gear in my TP.

I'd keep flaps down for a soft field and flaps up and on the brakes for a
short field.

mike

"Newps" wrote in message
. ..


Erik wrote:


Regardless of the type of landing, even short field or soft, I've
always been taught to clean up the aircraft after I'm clear of the
runway. I don't touch anything until then. So, keep them down, I've
been taught.


That is the weekend pilot information you got there. You give up
performance but you'll never retract the wheels on the ground. It's a
newbie answer. Are you a newbie?

Jim Carter wrote:
Short, soft fields are really pretty easy to get into; they're a bitch to
get out of though


Yes, you generally have to wait until the field is no longer soft ... or
truck out the airplane. :-)

Matt

On Apr 25, 2:54 pm, "Maxwell" wrote:
I was taught to lift the flaps immediately upon touch down on soft field
landings. My instructors stated getting more weight on the brakes as soon as
possible, would facilitate a quicker stop than leaving the flaps down for
drag, and loosing some braking power to the extra lift.

However, during my last BFR, the instructor corrected me very sharply. He
insisted you get more drag from the flaps by leaving them down until you
slowed to taxi speed, than the benefit of more weight on the brakes.

What is the general consensus of the group? Flaps up or down, after
touchdown on a soft field landing?

I think you are mixing up short field and soft field. In an FAA soft
field (which oddly, is never short) you leave the flaps down and use
no brakes.

-robert, CFII

On Apr 25, 5:20 pm, "Maxwell" wrote:
"Maxwell" wrote in message

m...

I was taught to lift the flaps immediately upon touch down on soft field
landings. My instructors stated getting more weight on the brakes as soon
as possible, would facilitate a quicker stop than leaving the flaps down
for drag, and loosing some braking power to the extra lift.

However, during my last BFR, the instructor corrected me very sharply. He
insisted you get more drag from the flaps by leaving them down until you
slowed to taxi speed, than the benefit of more weight on the brakes.

What is the general consensus of the group? Flaps up or down, after
touchdown on a soft field landing?

Yes, my mistake guy. I did mean short field landing.

Well that makes more sense. Different POH's recommend flaps up or not
touch the flaps. Getting the flaps up will make the landing shorter
but has caused many pilots to accidently raise the gear, so many CFIs
say don't touch anything on roll out. Personally, I raise the flaps
because I take my Mooney to real soft fields in Mexico. However, for
those that use it as an academic exercise it may be more important to
make sure your student doesn't grab the gear switch (which is hard to
stop as a CFII).

-Robert, CFII

Maxwell wrote:
I was taught to lift the flaps immediately upon touch down on soft field
landings. My instructors stated getting more weight on the brakes as soon as
possible, would facilitate a quicker stop than leaving the flaps down for
drag, and loosing some braking power to the extra lift.

However, during my last BFR, the instructor corrected me very sharply. He
insisted you get more drag from the flaps by leaving them down until you
slowed to taxi speed, than the benefit of more weight on the brakes.

What is the general consensus of the group? Flaps up or down, after
touchdown on a soft field landing?

First of all, have you checked your POH for clues?

Second, I think you have short and soft confused.

Soft fields slow the plane without brakes with surface drag. You don't
really want to STOP on a soft field, as you might even sink in. I was
taught to think ahead, so I didn't have to stop while taxiing on soft
conditions. I'd leave the flaps deployed while I concentrated on using
the elevator to keep the nose gear off the turf as much as possible,
which will also provide plenty of aero braking.

Short, paved fields are a different story. My Beech Sundowner has much
less braking ability with the flaps deployed, so I raise them as a
course of habit on pavement. The Piper PA-28 variations I've flown had
much better braking with the flaps out, raising the flaps didn't offer
anywhere near the braking improvement as with the Beech.

Newps wrote:

You need an instructor that plays in the dirt alot. I'm not an
instructor but I will outperform any of your typical college flyboy
instructors for short field landings. That's what I'm good at, but
don't ask me to help you fly a turn around a point. The POH is general
info, you want to do it at a higher level of performance you find the
people who do it all the time. Some of them may even be instructors,
like the people in McCall, ID.

Couldn't agree more. When doing pretend short field ops on a nice long
paved runway, the procedures in most POHs works just fine. When flying into
and out of an actual short strip, you're going to want to do everything you
can to maximize performance.

One example of this is the short field takeoff procedure I've seen in many
POHs that recommends standing on the brakes, going to full power, then
releasing the brakes. I never see anyone do this at short, high
backcountry strips (except for noobs). The rolling start is well known to
be superior.

As to the original question, there's a good reason for raising the flaps
just after touchdown (works best with manual flaps). Assuming that it's
really a short field, you can expect to be applying the brakes rather
vigorously, ASAP. If the wings are still carrying a lot of the aircraft
weight, it will be very easy to lock up the brakes inadvertently. If you
killed the lift by raising the flaps, you'll have much more effective braking.
You'll also be less likely to inadvertently flat-spot, or put a hole in your
tire. Something I've seen happen more than a few times on planes practicing
short field landings.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200704/1

It's the old "my instructor said..." story instead of reading the book. The
Airplane Flying Handbook says, on page 8-20, "If flaps are used, it is
generally inadvisable to retract them during the after-landing roll because
the need for flap retraction is usually less important than the need for
total concentration on maintaining full control of the airplane."

Gotta wonder (1) why the flaps-up instructor doesn't go by the book, and (2)
why you swallow his story without asking for documentation for his method.

Bob Gardner


"Maxwell" wrote in message
m...
I was taught to lift the flaps immediately upon touch down on soft field
landings. My instructors stated getting more weight on the brakes as soon
as possible, would facilitate a quicker stop than leaving the flaps down
for drag, and loosing some braking power to the extra lift.

However, during my last BFR, the instructor corrected me very sharply. He
insisted you get more drag from the flaps by leaving them down until you
slowed to taxi speed, than the benefit of more weight on the brakes.

What is the general consensus of the group? Flaps up or down, after
touchdown on a soft field landing?

On Apr 25, 2:54 pm, "Maxwell" wrote:
I was taught to lift the flaps immediately upon touch down on soft field
landings. My instructors stated getting more weight on the brakes as soon as
possible, would facilitate a quicker stop than leaving the flaps down for
drag, and loosing some braking power to the extra lift.

However, during my last BFR, the instructor corrected me very sharply. He
insisted you get more drag from the flaps by leaving them down until you
slowed to taxi speed, than the benefit of more weight on the brakes.

What is the general consensus of the group? Flaps up or down, after
touchdown on a soft field landing?

Please ignore my comments about soft-field landings (although I still
think you should use your reference material when your instructor says
something questionable instead of accepting it as gospel). The
Airplane Flying Handbook is silent on retracting flaps after touching
down on short field...go by the POH recommendation.

Instructors are often wrong...I know because I are one.

Bob Gardner

JGalban via AviationKB.com wrote:


One example of this is the short field takeoff procedure I've seen in many
POHs that recommends standing on the brakes, going to full power, then
releasing the brakes. I never see anyone do this at short, high
backcountry strips (except for noobs). The rolling start is well known to
be superior.


Yep, even a 20 foot perpindicular start to the actual runway helps.
Ain't no way I'm going to sit at the approach end of any runway and
runup to full power with the brakes on in my plane. If you want that
we'll do it in your plane.



As to the original question, there's a good reason for raising the flaps
just after touchdown (works best with manual flaps). Assuming that it's
really a short field, you can expect to be applying the brakes rather
vigorously, ASAP.


I've found best performance to be a carrier type landing. Fly it into
the ground at minimum speed, as soon as you hit lock the brakes, stick
full back and hit the flap switch. Let up slightly on the brakes every
now and again, I've found just a little slippage is better than totally
locked. Non pavement only, of course.