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#201
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
"Don Ocean" wrote in message ... Keith Willshaw wrote: There are a few minor problems, 50+ destroyers, a couple of dozen cruisers 5 or 6 Battleships and 20 bomber squadrons would be taking turns at shooting up those barges which would be moving at a slow walking pace. Oops. All sunk of course. Hand waving wont achieve that. Checkmate. Do you really take the German general staff as being amateurs at warfare? The Kriegsmarine staff had no illusions about the chances of success of any invasion. Admiral Raeder argued strongly that any such invasion would be a costly failure. This opinion was reinforced by the landing exercise carried out off Boulogne by 50 barges in broad daylight. After travelling less than a mile they were to run into the beach. In ideal weather one barge capsized and sank, another lost its tow and drifted out to sea, several managed to beach broadside on to the waves making landing very hazardous. The barges were very widely dispersed with many landing hundreds of metres from their intended point Only 50% of the troops managed to get out of the barges and on to the beach in the hour allocated and 10% never got to shore at all. Now factoring in a 30 hour crossing instead of 1 hour , night time and the tidal race in mid channel I think they'd have taken 20% casualties without the British firing and the remainder would have been scattered along the coast of Kent and East Sussex That has long been Englands downfall. Underestimating others and overestimating themselves. The Luftwaffe confidently assured the Fuhrer that they could achieve air superiority, they failed badly. Who underestimated whom I wonder. Keith |
#202
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message ... An army of 100,000 could easily turn out 1000 barges a day! Low skill labor, I could organize that. Who would make the oars ? Use math, 30,000/month, disposable on the beach of choice. No hoax, brits would "likely" be overwhelmed. Ken I think its very nice that the asylum allows you access to the internet but they really should take more care about your medication. Keith |
#203
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
Dan wrote:
Alexander wrote: Ken S. Tucker wrote: On Mar 17, 3:38 pm, "Paul J. Adam" wrote: In message , Ken S. Tucker writes I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat. In the same way that the Japanese could have conquered the US in five days in 1941 if they'd only bothered to try? (Land in California, commandeer weapons and transport from the cowardly fleeing populace, race the bad news to Washington, impose Imperial hegemony, declare victory while forcibly recruiting all white females between seven and seventy for "recreational services"?) I think whoever was telling you this, was pulling your leg so hard it's still out of its socket, and they're still telling the story of "some clueless guy called Tucker" who didn't just swallow the hook but took the line, and the sinker, and tried to eat the rod as well. I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who had more access to info than any historian will ever get, and explained it to me. That said, I don't want to play 'what if' games, ok. But I'll let you in on a secret, the Brits had thousands of cannons after Dunkirk, available for Nazi photo recon, made of wood logs, that's all the Brits had was bluff, but I think it was good in any case, the croats figured it was real. The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3. Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or 11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's. As I said, no sweat. But what ****un good is the that Island to Hitlers greater scheme, nothing, but we know now he made a strategic military error, and as Chruchill promised his bombers burned the black heart of Germany, that was very unpleasant to all who were involved. I request a polite response, as I gave. Ken You mean all those B17's, B24's, B25's, B26's etc were all Churchill's? Don't forget the B29's. I have a few magazine clips showing thousands of Aircraft at a time flying over Germany. And with US Markings. Some how I do believe it was a Joint operation. I do wonder where all that avgas came from? Not very good at history, are you? Dunkirk evacuation was 24 May - 4 June 1940. The U.S. aircraft you mention didn't get to the UK until 1942 and B-29 never operated from there. The Brits had been striking the Nazis for some time before the U.S. got there. As for your "magazine clips" do try to think for a bit, the U.S. flew in daylight, the UK flew at night. It was hard to photograph aircraft at night. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired The US Army Airforce flew all flights both day and night for quite some time. My comments regarding air flights were not too wrong as we furnished both pilots and planes prior to Dunkirk. Congress passed a special law allowing combat pilots to leave American soil and join the RAF without losing American citizenship. Many Pilots went to Canada and transferred to England from there. Pappy Boyington(US Marine) flew for General Chenault under Chiang kchek(sic) as one example. As for the Daylight vs Night flights..that setup was some time later. Check the archives of the 5th Army Airforce. |
#204
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Mar 18, 10:23*pm, Don Ocean wrote:
Keith Willshaw wrote: "Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message ... On Mar 17, 3:38 pm, "Paul J. Adam" wrote: In message , Ken S. Tucker writes I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat. In the same way that the Japanese could have conquered the US in five days in 1941 if they'd only bothered to try? (Land in California, commandeer weapons and transport from the cowardly fleeing populace, race the bad news to Washington, impose Imperial hegemony, declare victory while forcibly recruiting all white females between seven and seventy for "recreational services"?) I think whoever was telling you this, was pulling your leg so hard it's still out of its socket, and they're still telling the story of "some clueless guy called Tucker" who didn't just swallow the hook but took the line, and the sinker, and tried to eat the rod as well. I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who had more access to info than any historian will ever get, and explained it to me. That said, I don't want to play 'what if' games, ok. But I'll let you in on a secret, the Brits had thousands of cannons after Dunkirk, available for Nazi photo recon, made of wood logs, that's all the Brits had was bluff, but I think it was good in any case, the croats figured it was real. Britain was not at war with Croatia. The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3. Apart from those in the hands of the 11 infantry divisions and 2 armoured brigades deployed for home defense. Those 2 or 3 rifles came in rather handy in defeating the large Italian army that invaded Egypt Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or 11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's. As I said, no sweat. There are a few minor problems, 50+ destroyers, a couple of dozen cruisers 5 or 6 Battleships and 20 bomber squadrons would be taking turns at shooting up those barges which would be moving at a slow walking pace. Oops. All sunk of course. Checkmate. Do you really take the German general staff as being amateurs at warfare? That has long been Englands downfall. Underestimating others and overestimating themselves. Keith Actually they were when it came to a cross-Channel invasion. Try the various "Sea Lion" books and Warlimont's comments on the "planning" that didn't go into that op. You get the impression it was beyond their capabilities and certainly beyond Germany's. See OKW Directive 17. da.mod.uk/defac/colleges/jscsc/.../CONF38_OKWdirectives_sealion.pdf |
#205
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
Keith Willshaw wrote:
"Alexander" wrote in message ... William Black wrote: "Alexander" wrote in message ... A determined Germany would have eaten England alive, but for massive war materials and massive military direct aid. Well, assuming they could get there, which they couldn't... Are you really daft enough to believe that would always be? That is a very short Channel. Actually its about 300 miles long. At its narrowest its only about 22 miles wide but that has its own problems. The topography at its narrowest point is rather unfriendly to the invader. Landing on the beach between Folkestone and Deal leaves you at the foot of precipitous cliffs riddled with tunnels and batteries of guns. Think Omaha beach x 10 If you head NE to the beaches around Deal , Sandwich and Ramsgate you greatly increase the length of the sea crossing. Not a good idea when your barges can only do 4 knots especially given that the tidal race in those parts can run at 2-4 knots. Of course there is the little matter that it brings you closer to the RN ships at Harwich, Ramsgate and Chatham That leaves you landing on the beach between Folkestone and Rye. This is an area the British Army had been planning to defend since the Napoleonic wars. Apart from the fixed defenses there were gun batteries placed back from the coast with pre-surveyed fields of fire. There were five fully equipped infantry divisions covering this area with another 5 and an armoured division held in reserve. The Germans would have little or no armour or heavy guns but would be equipped with infantry weapons and a few mountain guns and mortars. Pity the poor soldier of the Heer short of food and ammunition trying to cross the royal military canal under fire from 7.2" and 25 pounder artillery into the teeth of the machine gun fire from the concrete pillboxes on the other side. The purpose of the home guard was NOT so much to fight the German Army as to release regular troops from routine security tasks. paranoid racist diatribe deleted Keith Lots of Concrete Liberty ships would do the job just fine. The point is really that the UK should learn from its past massive mistakes and never get in this fix again. |
#206
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
"Alexander" wrote in message ... Dan wrote: The US Army Airforce flew all flights both day and night for quite some time. That'll come as news to the RAF My comments regarding air flights were not too wrong as we furnished both pilots and planes prior to Dunkirk. The British were required to pay for any aircraft they received at this time in gold. The aircraft were shipped to Canada and sent over the border from there. With the exception of the F4 Wildcat the American fighters were regarded as second rate and relegated to the ground attack role. Congress passed a special law allowing combat pilots to leave American soil and join the RAF without losing American citizenship. Feel free to provide proof for this assertion. Many Pilots went to Canada and transferred to England from there. Pappy Boyington(US Marine) flew for General Chenault under Chiang kchek(sic) as one example. A little confused as to geography as well as history I see. Chiang Kai Shek was the leader of CHINA and Boyington flew in CHINA not Britain. As for the Daylight vs Night flights..that setup was some time later. Check the archives of the 5th Army Airforce. The 5th Airforce operated in the Phillipines, Australia and the south pacific. You really are confused aren't you. Keith |
#207
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
Keith Willshaw wrote:
"Alexander" wrote in message ... Paul J. Adam wrote: In message , Ken S. Tucker writes On Mar 18, 12:36 am, "William Black" wrote: Aren't we forgetting someone? This being a naval group and all... The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor, Ships sunk in port on a Sunday. Relates to ships at night, mixed in with your invasion force, how? suppose the Nazi's float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaff would've put a lot of iron in the channel. At night? The Luftwaffe was pretty poor at sinking ships in 1940. Stukas did a very credible job. They got four of forty destroyers at Dunkirk over days, when they were stopped to take on troops: here they have to sink forty destroyers very fast, at night, while they're making thirty knots. I would more attribute that to your air cover. Ships then as now were sitting ducks. Or did you forget massive air battles at the Coral Sea, Wake Island, Midway Island etc. Japanese aircraft did a real job at Pearl harbor on both anchored ships and fast moving destroyers in the outer harbor at Pearl Harbor. List of fast moving destroyers sunk at Pearl Harbor Start of List End of List The 3 destroyers 'sunk' at Pearl Harbor were all in dry dock at the time and were repaired and returned to service. The only destroyer on patrol damaged was the USS Helm. The bombs aimed at her missed but some damage was done by strafing. It was minor and she stayed on patrol joining the escort group of the USS Saratoga. Keith Good God...Don't you read the whole story or just what suites you? There is even a plaque in the Admin building at Pearl. You missed the Fleet tug that was in Floating Drydock along with 2 subchasers. |
#208
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
Keith Willshaw wrote:
"Alexander" wrote in message ... Dan wrote: The US Army Airforce flew all flights both day and night for quite some time. That'll come as news to the RAF My comments regarding air flights were not too wrong as we furnished both pilots and planes prior to Dunkirk. The British were required to pay for any aircraft they received at this time in gold. The aircraft were shipped to Canada and sent over the border from there. With the exception of the F4 Wildcat the American fighters were regarded as second rate and relegated to the ground attack role. Congress passed a special law allowing combat pilots to leave American soil and join the RAF without losing American citizenship. Feel free to provide proof for this assertion. Many Pilots went to Canada and transferred to England from there. Pappy Boyington(US Marine) flew for General Chenault under Chiang kchek(sic) as one example. A little confused as to geography as well as history I see. Not a bit. I won't be telling you any jokes.. it would take days to explain them to you. Chiang Kai Shek was the leader of CHINA and Boyington flew in CHINA not Britain. Wow... you caught on. As for the Daylight vs Night flights..that setup was some time later. Check the archives of the 5th Army Airforce. The 5th Airforce operated in the Phillipines, Australia and the south pacific. You really really need to recheck your data. You really are confused aren't you. Keith, your senility is overwhelming. I bow to your superior stupidity. ;-p Keith |
#209
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 05:36:26 -0500, Andrew Chaplin
wrote: "Paul J. Adam" wrote in : I think you need to re-examine the credentials of your Old Boy. He wasn't related to Baron Castleshortt VC, was he? A name of which we do not see enough on Newsnet. In the past on rec.heraldry he has been a source of endless mirth. He rates his own Wikki article, it's a little amusing. (under James Shortt) Peter Skelton |
#210
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Mar 18, 11:45*pm, Chris wrote:
On Mar 18, 10:05*pm, Alexander wrote: ... As I already noted in another post, please don't base your ideas for what the Germans could do based on the successes of the Japanese Navy. The Japanese Navy was so much better than the Luftwaffe at sinking ships that the comparison is ludicrous. ... Chris Manteuffel Pearl Harbor was an unexpected attack on close-packed stationary ships, inspired by the British success at Taranto. The Japanese weren't that good at bombing defended shipping at sea, Guadalcanal for example. One can assume that Spitfires would be at least as effective as Wildcats at protecting the ships. jsw |
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