Airbus 380

A few weeks ago there was on RAS a thread concerning the increased cost
of German gliders, due apparently to the voracious appetite of Airbus
for the raw materials: fiberglass, carbon fiber, etc...I read today
that FedEx had cancelled its order and options for a number of A380s,
and UPS was mulling the decision. So...perhaps with these
cancellations the shortage of raw materials will abate, there will be a
glut, and the cost of sailplanes will go down. Or perhaps not !

Cheers, Charles

wrote:
A few weeks ago there was on RAS a thread concerning the increased cost
of German gliders, due apparently to the voracious appetite of Airbus
for the raw materials: fiberglass, carbon fiber, etc...I read today
that FedEx had cancelled its order and options for a number of A380s,
and UPS was mulling the decision. So...perhaps with these
cancellations the shortage of raw materials will abate, there will be a
glut, and the cost of sailplanes will go down. Or perhaps not !

Cheers, Charles

Fedex is opting for 777's instead. Boeing's 7E7 is reportedly 60% CF,
with the wings to be built in Japan (a big CF producer).

You be the judge, Google around a bit on 'carbon fiber price-fixing'
and 'carbon fiber cartel' and 'carbon fiber production' keep digging
for a while. I think the artificially limited supply of the past 30
years has now resulted in a lack of production capacity. The stuff's
not available at any price to some producers at present. A few hands
got slapped.

Frank Whiteley

wrote:
A few weeks ago there was on RAS a thread concerning the increased cost
of German gliders, due apparently to the voracious appetite of Airbus
for the raw materials: fiberglass, carbon fiber, etc...I read today
that FedEx had cancelled its order and options for a number of A380s,
and UPS was mulling the decision. So...perhaps with these
cancellations the shortage of raw materials will abate, there will be a
glut, and the cost of sailplanes will go down. Or perhaps not !

It might get worse as they shift their orders to Boeing, who can deliver
much more quickly, and so need the materials sooner than Airbus. Or
perhaps not!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

wrote:
A few weeks ago there was on RAS a thread concerning the increased cost
of German gliders, due apparently to the voracious appetite of Airbus
for the raw materials: fiberglass, carbon fiber, etc...I read today
that FedEx had cancelled its order and options for a number of A380s,
and UPS was mulling the decision. So...perhaps with these
cancellations the shortage of raw materials will abate, there will be a
glut, and the cost of sailplanes will go down. Or perhaps not !

Cheers, Charles

I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and
am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.

Jacek

P.S. Lets not drift into political ranting this time...

They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
witness documents.

Ask me how I know.

I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and
am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.

Jacek

Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student memberships
the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I recall
one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it happens.


"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
witness documents.

Ask me how I know.

I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and
am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.

Jacek

Jim Vincent wrote:
Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student memberships
the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I recall
one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it happens.


"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
witness documents.

Ask me how I know.

I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and
am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.

Jacek



They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing

witness documents.

Ask me how I know.


I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as
the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and
than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait
to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't
fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time
with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know
what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had
a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want
to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but
I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5
or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I
am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't
afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a
beautiful sport...

Jacek
Washington State

"ASM" wrote in message
oups.com...

Jim Vincent wrote:
Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student
memberships
the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I recall
one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it
happens.


"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
witness documents.

Ask me how I know.

I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and
am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.

Jacek



They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing

witness documents.

Ask me how I know.


I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as
the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and
than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait
to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't
fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time
with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know
what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had
a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want
to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but
I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5
or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I
am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't
afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a
beautiful sport...

Jacek
Washington State


I understand where you guys are coming from but it's instructive to look
carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders. Glider rental
rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more than half the total
cost.

Most airplane training operation use trainers that cost far more than a new
ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers. Sleek glass gliders
are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people away than they
attract with low costs.

Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a winch
and keep the glass gliders.

Bill Daniels

Bill,

Oh, if we only had a winching legacy in the U.S.!
Blame those Wright boys from Dayton for inventing the
expensive towplane!

I would love for our club to have a two-drum winch
with about 5,500' of the new poly rope (rather than
the steel wire) on each drum and a couple of 'Lepo's'
to retrieve the rope. Of course, I wouldn't get rid
of the towplane we have, but supplement it with the
winch. I haven't been winched in about 20 years, not
because I don't want to, but because there isn't a
winch operation where I fly. But my first winch launch
(a 'cat' launch?) was in the back seat of a G103 and
I was elated and impressed. Wow, what a way to fly
a sailplane! Also nice was the lack of noise at the
start point. The wing runner picks up the wing, the
slack in the towline is taken up, then, the glider
is just wisked away. Somedays, we could hear the winch
and somedays we couldn't. Just ambient noise and the
glider is GONE. Now, we are subjected to towplane
noise and, in our situation, the noise of power planes
as they taxi by to take off. And, oh yea, they have
to do their engine run up about where we are staging
for launch. Noisy buggers.

Yep, a nice winch would be great and would make launching
A LOT cheaper!

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA



I understand where you guys are coming from but it's
instructive to look
carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders.
Glider rental
rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more
than half the total
cost.

Most airplane training operation use trainers that
cost far more than a new
ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers.
Sleek glass gliders
are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people
away than they
attract with low costs.

Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the
launch cost with a winch
and keep the glass gliders.

Bill Daniels

Ray

Winching often involves a winch driver all on his/her (yes we do have them) own
at the faaaar side of the field. As long as you rotating winch driving duties it
is no penance to spend some time with the monster. Brief petrol head interludes
interrupting some serious, enforced, solitude. This is another thing to get the
pleasure of learning to do well in diverse conditions.

Our winch is typically on the down hill, out of sight of the launch point with
nothing but grass and birds for company. I don't know how well this would work
in a society where everything tends to get regulated and managed to death, but
it works well for us. One of the attractions of soaring for me is to get some
time away from other people...

Aerotow is OK , but in my opinion, less fun. At an average of 8 winch launches /
aerotow in cost you have to be really bad at picking thermals to end up worse
off. If you fail to get away you get to have another roller-coaster ride. No
hardship.

The only thing that aerotow offers most of us is the ability to get to lift if
it is too high or too far away from the launch point to be reachable from the
winch. If you are flying an open class ship or heavily ballasted racer the winch
is not such a good idea.

Bruce
Bill,

Oh, if we only had a winching legacy in the U.S.!
Blame those Wright boys from Dayton for inventing the
expensive towplane!

I would love for our club to have a two-drum winch
with about 5,500' of the new poly rope (rather than
the steel wire) on each drum and a couple of 'Lepo's'
to retrieve the rope. Of course, I wouldn't get rid
of the towplane we have, but supplement it with the
winch. I haven't been winched in about 20 years, not
because I don't want to, but because there isn't a
winch operation where I fly. But my first winch launch
(a 'cat' launch?) was in the back seat of a G103 and
I was elated and impressed. Wow, what a way to fly
a sailplane! Also nice was the lack of noise at the
start point. The wing runner picks up the wing, the
slack in the towline is taken up, then, the glider
is just wisked away. Somedays, we could hear the winch
and somedays we couldn't. Just ambient noise and the
glider is GONE. Now, we are subjected to towplane
noise and, in our situation, the noise of power planes
as they taxi by to take off. And, oh yea, they have
to do their engine run up about where we are staging
for launch. Noisy buggers.

Yep, a nice winch would be great and would make launching
A LOT cheaper!

Ray Lovinggood