Leaving the community

Thomas, you're arguing with nuts who believe their titles are from God,
who,
filled with the holy spirit, believe that ownership of this continent,
and
perhaps even world domination, is manifest destiny ordained by gawd
awlmighty.

As an atheist, I find that to be a ROTFLMAO remark.

And as a come-and-go agnostic, I'm right there with ya!

In my book, "God's will" wouldn't even be mentioned as justification for
America's existence.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

When others attack and slaughter *us*, that's monstrous, incomprehensible
evil.

Which is why many of our ancestors came to America.

But when we do it to others--shrug, "that's life"; whether it's right or
wrong apparently isn't even worth thinking about.

"We" didn't do anything to the Indians -- and no amount of hand-wringing is
going to change their fate, or our lack of guilt.

I'm sure my great-great-great grandfather would have preferred staying in
Germany, but sometimes life sucks.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I never said poverty was the ONLY cause of crime. But it's pretty dumb to
think that there's NO causal relationship.

I don't believe anyone ever claimed that there was NO causal relationship
between crime and poverty.

What I implied, however, is that we shouldn't care if there is.

In America, theft is a moral problem, not an economic one. No one needs to
steal to survive here. Therefore, no one "needs" to steal.

And, thus, to restate the obvious, the people that *do* steal here are truly
scum.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Black slavery in America usually evokes images of the antebellum
South, but few realize that members of the Five Civilized Tribes--the
Cherokees, Choctaws, Chickasaws, Creeks, and Seminoles--in Indian
Territory, today's Oklahoma, also had slaves.

Fascinating stuff, Jerry. Thanks for sharing it.

Alas, no number of contrarian facts will serve to change people's minds
about how "noble" the Indians were, nor how "cruel" our white ancestors were
to "drive them off their land."

The Robert Redford version of history just plays so much better than
yours...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:aSTmd.351017$wV.228537@attbi_s54...
I don't believe anyone ever claimed that there was NO causal relationship
between crime and poverty.

So what? I wasn't replying to your post.

What I implied, however, is that we shouldn't care if there is.

I certainly believe that you don't care, and that you believe you shouldn't
care. Definitely fits what little I know about you and your sort of
"thinking".

In America, theft is a moral problem, not an economic one. No one needs
to steal to survive here.

I don't know which America you're talking about, but it's not the one I live
in. People die every day from poverty. People who, had they stolen, would
have survived. People whose ONLY REMAINING OPTION was to steal.

Pete

Thomas, you're arguing with nuts who believe their titles are from God, who,
filled with the holy spirit, believe that ownership of this continent, and
perhaps even world domination, is manifest destiny ordained by gawd
awlmighty.


I am fully aware of that. But sometimes it is fun to jerk the chain. If only
to confirm my judgements about wide parts of the US...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Leslie,

: Not only didn't they have ownership contracts, they had no concept of
: land ownership at all.
:

Some had the concept of owning people...


Any excuse for a clear conscience, huh?

"Oh, if THEY did it, it's ok if we do it, too" What kind of morals are
that?

"He's dead now" (quote courtesy of the US Marines Corps)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Jay,

how "cruel" our white ancestors were
to "drive them off their land."


Nobody said anything about the nobility of Native Americans. But there
simply can be no debate that they were subjected to systematic genocide
by people who greedily wanted the land they lived on. People whose
descendants now comprise the majority of the people living in the US.
And no matter the details of ownership - it destroyed their life style
and thus their society and subsequently their excistence. To claim that
"the Indians are still well and alive among us" is utterly cynical at
best.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"leslie" wrote in message
...
Matt Barrow ) wrote:
:
: Not only didn't they have ownership contracts, they had no concept of
: land ownership at all.
:

Some had the concept of owning people...

http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/slave_rv.htm
CHEROKEE SLAVE REVOLT OF 1842

The poorly written piece at this link without footnotes or source citations
tells more than you read. It tells that the slavery was learned by
half-Indian offspring of white *christian* slaveholders, who obviously took
their justifications for slavery from the Old and New Testaments of the Holy
Bible. The Bible is clear that slavery is approved. The slave is
admonished in both testaments to behave himself and be docile or be lashed
or killed.

So what is the purpose of this post, to demonize all Indians, including
Sioux and Pawnee, 200 years after the fact of stealing their lands? Some
of the white settlers attempted to enslave Indians but found it was about as
easy as herding cats.

Thomas Borchert ) wrote:
: Leslie,
:
: : Not only didn't they have ownership contracts, they had no concept of
: : land ownership at all.
: :
:
: Some had the concept of owning people...
:
:
: Any excuse for a clear conscience, huh?
:

What's your excuse for your accusatory tone, low morals ? ;-)

I don't condone slavery in any way, shape or form, unlike some members
of Congress, e.g. Tom DeLay, who wanted to keep abusive sweatshops open
in Saipan, where pregnant workers were fired if they didn't get abortions:

http://www.globalexchange.org/econom...abc040100.html
Pregnant garment workers on Saipan are forced to have abortions...

or U.S. corporations that prefer dictatorships:

http://www.globalexchange.org/econom...01/survey.html
Globalization Survey Reveals U.S. Corporations Prefer Dictatorships

: "Oh, if THEY did it, it's ok if we do it, too" What kind of morals are
: that?
:

The American Indians held other Indians as slaves long before white people
came here. Those slaves were the surviving losers of a battle.

If you want to know about my morals, I donated $ 25.00 to Malden Mills
when my monthly income was less than $ 1,000/month. in support of Aaron
Feuerstein:

http://sitesearch.washingtonpost.com...2001Dec19.html
A CEO Who Lives by What's Right (washingtonpost.com)

Mr. Feuerstein was kind enough to send a personal "thank you" note:

http://clio.rice.edu/leslie/feuerstein.jpg
http://clio.rice.edu/leslie/feuerstein.txt


--Jerry Leslie
Note: is invalid for email