A fair opportunity to compete?

On Jul 17, 1:19*pm, JJ Sinclair wrote:
Andy wrote:
Why wait the extra 5 minutes in that case?

Not all is known at gate opening time, just that half the fleet is OK
and a few are struggling.

Lets take the same scenario, but this time we'll make it the last day
and we need one more day to make it a contest. Any question as to
opening the gate now? Does anybody think a sane CD would scrub the
day?
JJ

But waiting 5 minutes could screw it up for everyone else. If you
believe in the luck of the draw than there is no point in waiting
since what is known and not known at gate opening time is all part of
the luck factor that you you are advocating we not try to correct for.

Last day versus first day shouldn't matter if we are trying to do the
fair thing - though I appreciate that the pressure to cut corners to
get a contest in goes up as the number of remaining days goes down.
Some CDs might open the gate with 60 percent of the fleet back on the
ground. You might well get a contest in, but would it be worth it?

9B

Andy wrote?

But waiting 5 minutes could screw it up for everyone else.

The 5 minutes comes right from the master, Charlie Spratt. Its an
acknowledgment that some are in trouble, but we're here to race and
race we will. Probably done more as an answer (in advance) to any
potential Parowan type protests that might be lurking out there.

Last day versus first day shouldn't matter if we are trying to do the
fair thing - though I appreciate that the pressure to cut corners to
get a contest in goes up as the number of remaining days goes down.
Some CDs might open the gate with 60 percent of the fleet back on the
ground. You might well get a contest in, but would it be worth it?

See above under, "We're here to race and race we will". If you want to
hold a contest that is completely fair, get the Parowan management
group together and the winner will be decided by the one who wins the
most protests (or prtests to the original protests)!

This has been a good thread and I believe much has been learned,
however I must take my exit now. I'm off to fly a contest where we
don't protest our launch positions!
Love & kisses to all,
JJ

Fly like the wind JJ! Good luck.

The CD must make
decisions based primarily on the best course of action for the most
competitors.

Sorry, in order to run a race, the CD must ensure that the race is
fair (and safe) for all competitors, not "most" competitors. If all
the towplanes break down with two gliders left to launch, you cannot
run a race, even if 44 pilots are circling around in a beautiful sky.
We can debate whether Parowan represented such a circumstance, but not
the principle.

John Cochrane

On Jul 17, 2:22*pm, Tim wrote:
I, myself, hope that drop-a-day is tried
somewhere soon. If I can, I would gladly fly that contest.

Tim,

I don't think you need to inflict, or bless, anyone else with the rule
to find out how it would influence contest results. Just pick a few
contests from this season and ask the scorers to send you the Winscore
files. Then get yourself a copy of Winscore, open the contest data
file, set the "use worst day scoring adjustment" option to on, and
then rescore the contest.

Let us know if there is any significant change in final results.

Andy

On Jul 18, 12:51*pm, Andy wrote:
On Jul 17, 2:22*pm, Tim wrote:

I, myself, hope that drop-a-day is tried
somewhere soon. If I can, I would gladly fly that contest.

Drop-a-day might make some sense in a long contest (like the ASAs
summer long series, which effectively does drop the worst days), but
in my recent experience back east it's tough to get enough good
contest days in to even have a valid contest! And if the purpose of
a contest is to find out who the best pilot is, then cutting down the
number of scored days just increases the luck factor - which in my
book is the opposite of "fair".

My $.02 on this whole debate (having been at contests where there was
a lot of waiting around after the launch was complete for the lift to
get high enough to open the gate: CDs need to be aware of the
conditions during the launch and not open the gate until everyone has
a fair chance to climb out - once. But once the gate is open, it's a
race, barring the most unusual circumstances (and then only if they
are safety-of-flight related).

Kirk
66

Drop-a-day might make some sense in a long contest (like the ASAs
summer long series, which effectively does drop the worst days), but
in my recent experience back east it's tough to get enough good
contest days in to even have a valid contest! * And if the purpose of
a contest is to find out who the best pilot is, then cutting down the
number of scored days just increases the luck factor - which in my
book is the opposite of *"fair".

OK, time to move drop a day to its own subject.

Let's start by getting the facts straight. You don't drop a day of the
whole contest, as if it were rained out! Each individual pilot gets
to drop his worst score. Let's read the rule:

11.4.4 Worst Day Score Adjustment If this is declared to be in
effect, an adjustment is calculated and added to the cumulative score
of eachentrant.
11.4.4.1 Worst Day Score Differential For each entrant, WDSD is the
greatest difference on any contest day between the entrant's score
(before application of a Contest penalty) and the highest score
achieved by any regular entrant in the class on that day.
11.4.4.2 A Worst Day Score Adjustment is added to each entrant's
cumulative score, as follows:
After one official day: WDSA = zero
After 2 official days: WDSA = 0.25 * WDSD
After 3 official days: WDSA = 0.5 * WDSD
After 4 official days: WDSA = 0.75 * WDSD
After 5 or more official days: WDSA = WDSD

Now, before we go on about how complicated the rules are, understand
why it is what it is. First, by 11.4.4.1 you don't just "drop" your
lowest score. Why not? They tried that in the UK, and one guy had to
drop a 500 point day -- which was the heavily devalued day he won!
That's silly. So, instead of just "dropping your worst score" you
instead get to "have the winner's score for a day." Next,for all this
worrying about short east coast contests, 11.4.4.2 specifies that
"drop a day" phases in for short contests. So you don't actually get
to fully "drop a day" until 5 days are in the bag.

OK, now you see that the obvious glitches, and Kirk and other's
objections about short eastern contests are already anticipated in the
rules.

Next, is it a good idea? We won't really know until we try it. Many
contests have been re-scored using drop a day, and it does exactly
what you'd think -- it helps pilots who have an isolated landout. I
regard this as "reducing the luck factor" not "increasing the luck
factor," but that's subjective

But we don't really know its effects until pilots fly knowing that
they can drop the day, and we see what different decisions they
make.

There are good arguments on both sides. Maybe pilolts will go for
broke, knowing that they can drop a bad day. Maybe not, knowing that
there is enough bad luck in this sport.

Personally, I hope that it will lead to better measurement and better
behavior. You don't have to fly into that thunderstorm if you know you
can drop the day. I also think it will be more fun. If you land out on
the first day of a national, you don't face 9 more days knowing you've
tanked the contest. And I've seen too many contests -- especially in
the east -- decided on luck of one landout on a weak day. But again,
it's all hot air until we try it.

Those of you who would like to try it, you need to tell CDs and CM's
rather than wait for them to do it. They are sensitive to pilot
opinion, and usually don't want to force things on pilots who don't
want it.

John Cochrane BB

At 15:43 18 July 2009, John Cochrane wrote:
The CD must make
decisions based primarily on the best course of action for the most
competitors.

Sorry, in order to run a race, the CD must ensure that the race is
fair (and safe) for all competitors, not "most" competitors. If all
the towplanes break down with two gliders left to launch, you cannot
run a race, even if 44 pilots are circling around in a beautiful sky.
We can debate whether Parowan represented such a circumstance, but not
the principle.

John Cochrane

and that ladies and gentlemen is your failing, you are trying to do what
is suggested and make a contest fair for all competitors. No matter how
hard you try, no matter how good you are if you do actually manage to
suceed in that aim it will be because of pure blind luck. There will
always be something which does not go exactly according to plan, no plan
survives first contact remember.
You have to do be best you can and that does really mean that you have to
make it fair for as many competitors as possible, you cannot control the
weather so forget all and think most. It does not alter the premise that
if a competition gate is opened and competitors complete the task it
should never be cancelled.
As far a safety is concerned you have even less chance of making it safe
for all competitors than you do of making it fair, the best you can do is
ensure that the conditions existing are such that pilots of the level of
competence engaged in the task can compete safely. What pilots actually
do, how far they are prepared to let competitiveness overcome their
airmansip, or not, will determine how safe a competition actually is. The
actions of a CD can contribute much but how safe a competition is is
firmly in the hands of the competing pilots.
While you can set in place a fair framework you can never control the
envoironment to ensure it.
All the whining in the world would not cause a competition day to be
cancelled under our rules, and quite rightly so and there will always be
someone who percieves they were unfairly treated if for no other reason
that they need an excuse to explain why they failed.

This has been a long and very interesting thread. How the rules CAN look
and be interpreted from different points of view when push comes to
shove.
I too came from the Hang Gliding world as both a competitor and a
Nationals CD and have had to deal with several pivotal decisions. It is
tough on everyone when one of these situations come up and pilots take up
sides. Ron Gleason pointed out several vague aspects to our current set of
rules and I hope this winter these can be clarified to make it the playing
field a bit more level and clear.
One more spice in this giant pot of stew:
If a guy has a rope break and lands out and can't get back in the air
does he have a fair opportunity to compete?
What if this guy was KS and he is in first place on the last day?
What if this guy was Joe glider guy and was in last place and the day had
the best weather conditions of the comp and the whole gang flew 350 miles
at 90 MPH. do you throw out the day?

This protest was a tough decision that was seriously looked. I can both
sides very clearly, as I was in the middle of the sports class launch that
day. I feel for the protester. I feel for JJ.
Never the less it was another GREAT Parowan contest. Super people to hang
with, excellent task calls, superior management. Some real top level
flying.
I learned alot about the "rules and had a blast to boot
Nick Kennedy
XS
At 23:07 18 July 2009, wrote:
On Jul 18, 12:51=A0pm, Andy wrote:
On Jul 17, 2:22=A0pm, Tim wrote:

I, myself, hope that drop-a-day is tried
somewhere soon. If I can, I would gladly fly that contest.

Drop-a-day might make some sense in a long contest (like the ASAs
summer long series, which effectively does drop the worst days), but
in my recent experience back east it's tough to get enough good
contest days in to even have a valid contest! And if the purpose of
a contest is to find out who the best pilot is, then cutting down the
number of scored days just increases the luck factor - which in my
book is the opposite of "fair".

My $.02 on this whole debate (having been at contests where there was
a lot of waiting around after the launch was complete for the lift to
get high enough to open the gate: CDs need to be aware of the
conditions during the launch and not open the gate until everyone has
a fair chance to climb out - once. But once the gate is open, it's a
race, barring the most unusual circumstances (and then only if they
are safety-of-flight related).

Kirk
66

This has been a long and very interesting thread. How the rules CAN look
and be interpreted from different points of view when push comes to
shove.
I too came from the Hang Gliding world as both a competitor and a
Nationals CD and have had to deal with several pivotal decisions. It is
tough on everyone when one of these situations come up and pilots take up
sides. Ron Gleason pointed out several vague aspects to our current set of
rules and I hope this winter these can be clarified to make it the playing
field a bit more level and clear.
One more spice in this giant pot of stew:
If a guy has a rope break and lands out and can't get back in the air
does he have a fair opportunity to compete?
What if this guy was KS and he is in first place on the last day?
What if this guy was Joe glider guy and was in last place and the day had
the best weather conditions of the comp and the whole gang flew 350 miles
at 90 MPH. do you throw out the day?

This protest was a tough decision that was seriously looked. I can both
sides very clearly, as I was in the middle of the sports class launch that
day. I feel for the protester. I feel for JJ.
Never the less it was another GREAT Parowan contest. Super people to hang
with, excellent task calls, superior management. Some real top level
flying.
I learned alot about the "rules and had a blast to boot
Nick Kennedy
XS
At 23:07 18 July 2009, wrote:
On Jul 18, 12:51=A0pm, Andy wrote:
On Jul 17, 2:22=A0pm, Tim wrote:

I, myself, hope that drop-a-day is tried
somewhere soon. If I can, I would gladly fly that contest.

Drop-a-day might make some sense in a long contest (like the ASAs
summer long series, which effectively does drop the worst days), but
in my recent experience back east it's tough to get enough good
contest days in to even have a valid contest! And if the purpose of
a contest is to find out who the best pilot is, then cutting down the
number of scored days just increases the luck factor - which in my
book is the opposite of "fair".

My $.02 on this whole debate (having been at contests where there was
a lot of waiting around after the launch was complete for the lift to
get high enough to open the gate: CDs need to be aware of the
conditions during the launch and not open the gate until everyone has
a fair chance to climb out - once. But once the gate is open, it's a
race, barring the most unusual circumstances (and then only if they
are safety-of-flight related).

Kirk
66