Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

"Jesus flap".....never heard that before.....but......having flown an early -20(a), yes, every spring after getting used to things, I would come down final VERY high....then, full brakes and full flaps....Frikkin felt like standing on the rudder pedals but limited speed increase...impressive!
The 20C was close, but not quite as good.

Winglets help on the low speed end depending on what design....some are more high speed others are low/mid range speeds.
For most thermal spots, I would lean to a 20C since some auto hookups.
Strong thermals and ridge, I would lean to a 20B due to wingloading.

The 20 B & C have automatic elevator hookup - caveat that the extremely hamhanded could possibly misalign.

There's been some attrition of the "a" model and a few pilots because of failed elevator hookups.

Dont rule out the Ventus, although getting one for 25k it will surely be run out. It made a huge difference in handling when I added a tail tank and got the cg back to 85-90%. Winglets make low speed handling better too.

CH 3500 hrs in Ventus B now in a ASW27

On Wed, 03 Apr 2019 14:17:04 -0700, George Haeh wrote:

There's been some attrition of the "a" model and a few pilots because of
failed elevator hookups.

I never minded the elevator hook-up because at least it was out in the
open and easy to see while you connected it. OTOH I really disliked
fumbling in the dark inside that tiny hatch with six connections to make.
At least mine had Weedekind sleeves fitted: doing the job without them
and trying to fit the safety clips one-handed doesn't bear thinking about.

BTW, some numbers for the OP: after soloing I flew the club's SZD Juniors
for a year before converting to a Pegasus 101 (at Williams) with 83
hours, mostly winch launches, so 223 flights). For the next three years I
flew the club's Peg 90 and Discuses, greatly preferring the Peg (better
all-round vis and comfort). Then I bought an early ASW-20 - at that time
I had 272 hours and 411 launches. I reckon it took me another 35 hours
before being fully comfortable with it, i.e. being in the right flap
setting at all times.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

I have flown both and I feel the control harmony of the -3a was just fabulous. I miss it. The two guys I know who sold an LS to "upgrade" to a Schempp-Hirth product were disgusted with their new acquisitions and ditched them promptly. Done many inspections on German ships from 3 other mfg. and IMHO none I have seen yet are superior in construction and design to the LS.

I have about 3,000 hours on various ASWs incl. ASW 20, 20B,(both without winglets) and now ASW 27. I found the ASW 20 to be a wonderful machine, but, as others have said, the full landing flap has to be used carefully. My brother was more of an S-H man having owned a Standard Cirrus, Mini-Nimbus and then a Ventus B. He did very well with them in competitions. Finally, he bought a share in an ASW 20C. After his first flight his only comment was " now I know why you guys did so well in the ASW 20s". He found the handling to be quite a bit better than that of the Ventus B. I also found that the ASW 20B and Ventus B were equals in almost all conditions but the ASW had the handling edge.

On Sunday, 31 March 2019 23:04:06 UTC-4, Michael N. wrote:
I'm looking for a glider for cross country in the $25k range.

I'd like to get a flapped 15 meter, and have been doing a lot of searching and reading on the groups and have kind of narrowed my decision down to an ASW20 or LS3a

I have about 200 hours in gliders all glass, but never anything with flaps, however I also owned and have several hundred hours in a Mooney M20C so have good experience in complex aircraft that require good in flight planning for various aspects of flight.

I was also considering the following, and will list some of my reasons for weeding them out of my choice list.

Ventus B: Great performance, but my understanding from reading (no actual experience) is that they are not forgiving or maybe a better way of putting it, is they require full time attention which can be fatiguing on long flights.

DG 200 or 202, good aircraft but you have to pay annual fees just to buy parts?

Mini Nimbus: also good aircraft, just not up to the same performance level as an ASW20

That kind of leaves the ASW20 or LS3 in this price range and category. Unless I am missing something.

So which would you have and why?
I am leaning towards an ASW20 purchase, but am finding some very well equipped LS3a's in the same price range as a moderately equipped ASW20.

Assuming similar clamshell style trailers and self rigging gear, which is the better buy or which would you have and why?

Also, anyone knowing of an ASW20 or LS3 for sale not already on Wings and Wheels, I'd like to hear about it.

Thanks, I know this topic has been brought up before, but I am in the final stages of preparing for a purchase before the 2019 season gets into full swing and would like to get some final advice before pulling the trigger on this purchase.

On Monday, April 1, 2019 at 6:01:10 PM UTC-5, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
I can only speak for AS.......20, 24, 28, 29 for single place glass, ASK-21 for dual......not counting many SGS ships (26, 33, 34, 35, 36), but the AS's have a similar control harmony to SGS FWIW.......

I'm curious what makes you say that - the LAST ships I would describe has having control harmony similar to ANY glass ship is anything made by Schweizer!

SGS: 1-23, 1-26, 1-34, 2-22, 2-32, 2-33.

AS: 19, 20, 21

IMHO, SGS gliders range from OK if heavy (2-32, 1-23, 1-34) to twitchy in pitch but nice otherwise (1-26) to borderline unpleasant (2-22, 2-33).

But then I'm spoiled by 1000 hrs in an LS6...

Cheers,

66

On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 20:57:24 -0700 (PDT), "Matt Herron (Sr)"
wrote:

.... text deleted

Hi Michael: I've owned an LS-4, a Ventus C, and my current LS-6. For me there would be no choice.
The LS gliders are a joy to fly. They have no bad habits; they hold tight circles easily; and on long
flights they are much less fatiguing. On my third Ventus flight in turbulence I went into a high speed
stall without any warning, found myself looking directly at the ground and thought I was going to die.
It took me three years to fully trust the glider. The Ventus C and especially the B require constant
attention to the flight controls. They do not fly themselves. Flying the Ventus will eventually make
you a very good pilot, but you may not entirely enjoy the experience.

text deleted
Matt

Just a quick note in defense of the Ventus. After 20 years and approx
1800 hours flying a Ventus C in both flatland and mountain conditions
(mostly in 17.6m configuation), I have never experienced any
uncommanded flight motion. That said, the ship will not fly "hands
off" for very long. Note, I have not flown a Ventus B, so cannot
comment on differences between the B and C, other than that the C is
much easier to tape the wing-fuselage intersection (it has a fillet on
the fuselage).

Bob

I used to be a pretty avid amateur photographer. Some old timer observed once that in that field amateurs worry about equipment, pros worry about money, true masters worry about light. And so it is with soaring (substitute "rules" for "money", "weather" for "light").

There's no getting around the need for equipment, and the purchasing decisions are significant, but I'd suggest being careful with the advice of anyone who seems to have a brand name tatooed on their psyche and even more careful with *anything* you read on r.a.s. :-).

Your equipment needs to fit your mission. The mission of a 200 hr glider pilot interested in XC is to go out and fly XC and become a better, more experienced pilot without breaking ****. Do you ski? Skiers get this: there is no point to buying more ski or taking on more terrain than your current skills can cope with. You improve by stretching the envelope incrementally.. You do not improve spending your time and money in doctor's offices. Your objective as a skier is to become a better skier, not own brand xxxxxx equipment.

Make friends with the guys who have been doing the kind of flying you want to do and are obviously enjoying it. They'll have good insight.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

Michael,
There’s an elephant in the room that nobody’s talking about.. Your price range means older ships, older ships have old gelcoat. Properly refinishing a 15 meter ship is going to cost a minimum of 20K! If you buy a ship with so-so finish, your going to sell it a few years down the road with less than so-so finish! My number one priority would be buying a ship with recent refinish in Urethane. Number 2 priority would be good instruments, number 3 priority would be trailer, then comes auto hookup’s, disc brakes, nose tow hook, etc. I am a prior owner the LS-3a that Stowers is brokering at Minden. Feel free to contact me for any questions about that bird.
JJ