Why are so many Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale?

They don't use Franklin engines, do they? Sorry...couldn't resist

Scott


Dan wrote:
I've been around airplanes and gliders my
entire life, I'm an A&P and a professional aerospace engineer for 31
years so I'm well aware of the way aircraft can develop their own set
of rumors and gossip that can take on a life all their own.

On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 04:23:25 -0000, VARR wrote:


Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-) I'm not
trolling, but rather am looking for actual information and opinions on
the S10-VT motorglider.

I have been granted the right to use a Stemme for 2years, tgether with
4 other friends. I must say I was lucky to get this opportunity.

I've had some good flights, including a trip from Italy to Morocco and
back.
It was an S10-v (not "T"). Excellent performance in cruise, not ideal
takeoff perfo. But I must say, with 2 people and full tanks, I was way
beyond MTOW.
Good for taking friends in the air, excellent for soaring safaris,
quite good for serious XC, especially if the center of gravity had
been optimised (if setup for a 70kg solo, than it's quite awkward in
thermals with 200kg in the cockpit...)

I never lost a day due to technical malfunctions.
TE probe never worked well.
Manoevrabily with positive flaps is less than satisfactory: better
revert to zero, manoever, than +flaps again.

Maintenance costs are quite high, due to low propeller TBO almost
doubling engine costs. I was told that later the TBO had been
extended, thus reducing propeller costs by some 30%

Tough for landing in a crosswind. Things get easier on a long runway.
The long legs of the undercarriage are much tougher than they look.
But you do need a smooth surface.

Beware of small holes, ditches etc when taxiing on grass: it's quite
easy to damage the propeller on a ground impact.

The VT has much better takeoff performance.

I regret having lost the opportunity to fly it: the owner has finally
sold it.

Aldo Cernezzi
dg600M

Stemme motorgliders are complicated, without a doubt,
but you can do some amazing things with them. Take
a look at some of the trips that Marty Hellman has
documented on his web site, http://ee.stanford.edu/~hellman/soarin
g/photos.html. If you are interested a resource you
should consider is Glider Bob in Telluride. He gives
rides, instructs and acts as a sales agent for many
sellers. I think he has been involved with Stemmes
since they first came to the US. Unlike Marty and
Glider Bob I am a relatively new owner but I am happy
to try to answer any questions.

Forest

At 00:06 30 October 2007, Pigro wrote:
On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 04:23:25 -0000, VARR wrote:


Are these people already upgrading to the Antares?
;-) I'm not
trolling, but rather am looking for actual information
and opinions on
the S10-VT motorglider.

I have been granted the right to use a Stemme for 2years,
tgether with
4 other friends. I must say I was lucky to get this
opportunity.

I've had some good flights, including a trip from Italy
to Morocco and
back.
It was an S10-v (not 'T'). Excellent performance in
cruise, not ideal
takeoff perfo. But I must say, with 2 people and full
tanks, I was way
beyond MTOW.
Good for taking friends in the air, excellent for soaring
safaris,
quite good for serious XC, especially if the center
of gravity had
been optimised (if setup for a 70kg solo, than it's
quite awkward in
thermals with 200kg in the cockpit...)

I never lost a day due to technical malfunctions.
TE probe never worked well.
Manoevrabily with positive flaps is less than satisfactory:
better
revert to zero, manoever, than +flaps again.

Maintenance costs are quite high, due to low propeller
TBO almost
doubling engine costs. I was told that later the TBO
had been
extended, thus reducing propeller costs by some 30%

Tough for landing in a crosswind. Things get easier
on a long runway.
The long legs of the undercarriage are much tougher
than they look.
But you do need a smooth surface.

Beware of small holes, ditches etc when taxiing on
grass: it's quite
easy to damage the propeller on a ground impact.

The VT has much better takeoff performance.

I regret having lost the opportunity to fly it: the
owner has finally
sold it.

Aldo Cernezzi
dg600M

On Monday, October 29, 2007 at 11:02:08 PM UTC-4, Forest Baskett wrote:
Stemme motorgliders are complicated, without a doubt,
but you can do some amazing things with them. Take
a look at some of the trips that Marty Hellman has
documented on his web site, http://ee.stanford.edu/~hellman/soarin
g/photos.html. If you are interested a resource you
should consider is Glider Bob in Telluride. He gives
rides, instructs and acts as a sales agent for many
sellers. I think he has been involved with Stemmes
since they first came to the US. Unlike Marty and
Glider Bob I am a relatively new owner but I am happy
to try to answer any questions.

Forest

At 00:06 30 October 2007, Pigro wrote:
On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 04:23:25 -0000, VARR wrote:


Are these people already upgrading to the Antares?
;-) I'm not
trolling, but rather am looking for actual information
and opinions on
the S10-VT motorglider.

I have been granted the right to use a Stemme for 2years,
tgether with
4 other friends. I must say I was lucky to get this
opportunity.

I've had some good flights, including a trip from Italy
to Morocco and
back.
It was an S10-v (not 'T'). Excellent performance in
cruise, not ideal
takeoff perfo. But I must say, with 2 people and full
tanks, I was way
beyond MTOW.
Good for taking friends in the air, excellent for soaring
safaris,
quite good for serious XC, especially if the center
of gravity had
been optimised (if setup for a 70kg solo, than it's
quite awkward in
thermals with 200kg in the cockpit...)

I never lost a day due to technical malfunctions.
TE probe never worked well.
Manoevrabily with positive flaps is less than satisfactory:
better
revert to zero, manoever, than +flaps again.

Maintenance costs are quite high, due to low propeller
TBO almost
doubling engine costs. I was told that later the TBO
had been
extended, thus reducing propeller costs by some 30%

Tough for landing in a crosswind. Things get easier
on a long runway.
The long legs of the undercarriage are much tougher
than they look.
But you do need a smooth surface.

Beware of small holes, ditches etc when taxiing on
grass: it's quite
easy to damage the propeller on a ground impact.

The VT has much better takeoff performance.

I regret having lost the opportunity to fly it: the
owner has finally
sold it.

Aldo Cernezzi
dg600M


Forest,
I am considering purchasing a new 2015 Stemme S10VT but would like someone to hangar talk with. Please contact me off post if you could.
.

Thanks,
Jim

On Oct 28, 12:23 am, VARR wrote:
There appear to be a number of Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale.
Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-)

The Stemme is a very special aircraft - it can tour great
distances at high speed, with a friend and maybe even
a toothbrush. It has good performance as a glider.
It is complicated to do all these things...

The Antares is a very different machine for a different use.
It has extremely high performance, but only one seat.
Not for touring under power, though more than enough
capacity for launching and reserve (I've never had mine
below 65% capacity). I rig and derig my Antares quickly
by myself, the Stemme needs a Hangar. The Antares
is more agile than some 15-meter ships, the Stemme
is a bit, um, deliberate about changing direction.

So it wouldn't be an upgrade so much as a change
for a different kind of flying !

Best Regards, Dave "YO"

On Oct 30, 4:16 pm, wrote:
On Oct 28, 12:23 am, VARR wrote:

There appear to be a number of Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale.
Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-)

The Stemme is a very special aircraft - it can tour great
distances at high speed, with a friend and maybe even
a toothbrush. It has good performance as a glider.
It is complicated to do all these things...

The Antares is a very different machine for a different use.
It has extremely high performance, but only one seat.
Not for touring under power, though more than enough
capacity for launching and reserve (I've never had mine
below 65% capacity). I rig and derig my Antares quickly
by myself, the Stemme needs a Hangar. The Antares
is more agile than some 15-meter ships, the Stemme
is a bit, um, deliberate about changing direction.

So it wouldn't be an upgrade so much as a change
for a different kind of flying !

Best Regards, Dave "YO"
Dave,
Everyone's requirements for a motorglider are different. My main
goal is to eliminate the long drive time to the gliderports. This is
a fact of life in southern California especially if you live in the
beach areas. I have a hangar/shop at an airport so that is no
problem, in my case it is what I desire.
My requirements for the "perfect motorglider" are to operate out of a
small narrow airport in the Los Angeles basin very close to LAX. I
need to taxi and maybe even taxi with the wings folded. I need to
taxi around many obstacles just as easily as a Cessna. I want to fly
50 miles or more to areas where I can soar. I feel these two
requirements can not be filled with self launchers. I'm sure the
Antares is a wonderful machine but I put the Antares into the category
of being a self launcher, not a motorglider. I've never seen an
Antares but when I've considered a self launcher I have gravitated
towards the ASH-26E, mostly because I've seen them and flown with
them.
I've flown the Stemme and the Ximango and liked them both. They both
fit the physical taxi and ground maneuvering requirements I desire.
Having owned an ASW-20 for several years I don't think I would be
happy with lower performance so the Stemme is more appealing from that
point of view. When I flew the Stemme we flew both ridge and thermals
found it handled very well. It truly is an awesome machine.
The Carat is also high on my list. I'm a little concerned it may be a
little tight to taxi around my airport. The span will just fit
(tight) but the new FAA mandated signage at taxi ways may pose a
problem. I haven't flown one but I've seen and flown with a few,
they impress me.
A nice feature I do like about a self launcher and the Carat is the
ability to trailer as an option. This would allow more flexibility
with regards to weather. The ability to trailer would minimize the
problems we have with VFR flight during the "June Gloom" marine
stratus we deal with in the summer here in SoCal.
Maybe if the next version of Antares had a conventional landing gear
and folding wing tips it would be higher on my list!

Dan Rihn
ASW-20 WO

Hi Dan

Only ~1:40 but the Pipistrel Taurus would also be a good option given the
requirements you set.

Bruce

Dan wrote:
On Oct 30, 4:16 pm, wrote:
On Oct 28, 12:23 am, VARR wrote:

There appear to be a number of Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale.
Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-)
The Stemme is a very special aircraft - it can tour great
distances at high speed, with a friend and maybe even
a toothbrush. It has good performance as a glider.
It is complicated to do all these things...

The Antares is a very different machine for a different use.
It has extremely high performance, but only one seat.
Not for touring under power, though more than enough
capacity for launching and reserve (I've never had mine
below 65% capacity). I rig and derig my Antares quickly
by myself, the Stemme needs a Hangar. The Antares
is more agile than some 15-meter ships, the Stemme
is a bit, um, deliberate about changing direction.

So it wouldn't be an upgrade so much as a change
for a different kind of flying !

Best Regards, Dave "YO"
Dave,
Everyone's requirements for a motorglider are different. My main
goal is to eliminate the long drive time to the gliderports. This is
a fact of life in southern California especially if you live in the
beach areas. I have a hangar/shop at an airport so that is no
problem, in my case it is what I desire.
My requirements for the "perfect motorglider" are to operate out of a
small narrow airport in the Los Angeles basin very close to LAX. I
need to taxi and maybe even taxi with the wings folded. I need to
taxi around many obstacles just as easily as a Cessna. I want to fly
50 miles or more to areas where I can soar. I feel these two
requirements can not be filled with self launchers. I'm sure the
Antares is a wonderful machine but I put the Antares into the category
of being a self launcher, not a motorglider. I've never seen an
Antares but when I've considered a self launcher I have gravitated
towards the ASH-26E, mostly because I've seen them and flown with
them.
I've flown the Stemme and the Ximango and liked them both. They both
fit the physical taxi and ground maneuvering requirements I desire.
Having owned an ASW-20 for several years I don't think I would be
happy with lower performance so the Stemme is more appealing from that
point of view. When I flew the Stemme we flew both ridge and thermals
found it handled very well. It truly is an awesome machine.
The Carat is also high on my list. I'm a little concerned it may be a
little tight to taxi around my airport. The span will just fit
(tight) but the new FAA mandated signage at taxi ways may pose a
problem. I haven't flown one but I've seen and flown with a few,
they impress me.
A nice feature I do like about a self launcher and the Carat is the
ability to trailer as an option. This would allow more flexibility
with regards to weather. The ability to trailer would minimize the
problems we have with VFR flight during the "June Gloom" marine
stratus we deal with in the summer here in SoCal.
Maybe if the next version of Antares had a conventional landing gear
and folding wing tips it would be higher on my list!

Dan Rihn
ASW-20 WO

On Oct 30, 10:40 pm, Bruce wrote:
Hi Dan

Only ~1:40 but the Pipistrel Taurus would also be a good option given the
requirements you set.

Bruce



Dan wrote:
On Oct 30, 4:16 pm, wrote:
On Oct 28, 12:23 am, VARR wrote:

There appear to be a number of Stemme S10-VT motorgliders for sale.
Are these people already upgrading to the Antares? ;-)
The Stemme is a very special aircraft - it can tour great
distances at high speed, with a friend and maybe even
a toothbrush. It has good performance as a glider.
It is complicated to do all these things...

The Antares is a very different machine for a different use.
It has extremely high performance, but only one seat.
Not for touring under power, though more than enough
capacity for launching and reserve (I've never had mine
below 65% capacity). I rig and derig my Antares quickly
by myself, the Stemme needs a Hangar. The Antares
is more agile than some 15-meter ships, the Stemme
is a bit, um, deliberate about changing direction.

So it wouldn't be an upgrade so much as a change
for a different kind of flying !

Best Regards, Dave "YO"
Dave,
Everyone's requirements for a motorglider are different. My main
goal is to eliminate the long drive time to the gliderports. This is
a fact of life in southern California especially if you live in the
beach areas. I have a hangar/shop at an airport so that is no
problem, in my case it is what I desire.
My requirements for the "perfect motorglider" are to operate out of a
small narrow airport in the Los Angeles basin very close to LAX. I
need to taxi and maybe even taxi with the wings folded. I need to
taxi around many obstacles just as easily as a Cessna. I want to fly
50 miles or more to areas where I can soar. I feel these two
requirements can not be filled with self launchers. I'm sure the
Antares is a wonderful machine but I put the Antares into the category
of being a self launcher, not a motorglider. I've never seen an
Antares but when I've considered a self launcher I have gravitated
towards the ASH-26E, mostly because I've seen them and flown with
them.
I've flown the Stemme and the Ximango and liked them both. They both
fit the physical taxi and ground maneuvering requirements I desire.
Having owned an ASW-20 for several years I don't think I would be
happy with lower performance so the Stemme is more appealing from that
point of view. When I flew the Stemme we flew both ridge and thermals
found it handled very well. It truly is an awesome machine.
The Carat is also high on my list. I'm a little concerned it may be a
little tight to taxi around my airport. The span will just fit
(tight) but the new FAA mandated signage at taxi ways may pose a
problem. I haven't flown one but I've seen and flown with a few,
they impress me.
A nice feature I do like about a self launcher and the Carat is the
ability to trailer as an option. This would allow more flexibility
with regards to weather. The ability to trailer would minimize the
problems we have with VFR flight during the "June Gloom" marine
stratus we deal with in the summer here in SoCal.
Maybe if the next version of Antares had a conventional landing gear
and folding wing tips it would be higher on my list!

Dan Rihn
ASW-20 WO- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bruce,
Yes, I've been following the Taurus as well as waiting for the Mangus/
Maxus to fly. Also keeping an eye on the latest from Stemme. At the
same time saving my money and waiting for the dollar to turn around.
Meanwhile loving my ASW-20 and wishing it could taxi, takeoff, climb
out and motor home at the end of the day!

Dan

Back when I worked for a living (though some employees may think that never
occurred), it was convenient to slip off to the airport and pull the Stemme
out of the T-hangar. Unfolding the wings took minutes, pre-flight a bit
longer, but altogether much less time and effort than rigging a glider.

The Stemme allowed me to go soaring as easily as pulling a Mooney out of the
hangar. It also allowed operations at a tower controlled airport (Napa, CA)
with no hassles either as a power plane taxiing out or, a few hours later,
as a glider returning to land. There's no way I could have enjoyed such
spur-of-the-moment soaring with the ASH26E I own now.

The Stemme S10-VT is uniquely capable when it comes to ground handling,
cruising under power, cruise climb to high altitude (great for saw-tooth
eating distance), and soaring performance including high speed polar. All of
this capability rolled into one package does come at a price. Systems are
complex and ship maintenance shouldn't be ignored. Yearly maintenance costs,
while not a deal breaker, will be significantly more that with a pylon
self-launcher.

So why did I sell the Stemme for a ASH26? I retired and moved to Minden, so
some of the Stemme's advantages were no longer needed. I continue to fly the
26E alongside my Stemme friends. The ships perform very similarly, though
the 26E will outclimb the S-10 in smaller or weaker thermals. Running
between thermals at 90 knots, the sink rate is so close it's hard to tell a
difference.

Under power there is no comparison. The S10-VT easily climbs at 90 - 100
knots and is still going strong at 18K. In level cruise it easily does 125
knots without pushing hard. The ASH26E can climb 8K AGL if you're patient.
In level cruise it'll do 70 knots (due to the climb prop). On the plus side,
my 26E has been very reliable.

Yup, I lived through the VT's early-on prop, gear box recalls and most of
the AD's. Even so, if I needed the capabilities of the Stemme I'd consider
buying another.

As far a bemoaning the prices of self-launchers and motorgliders in general
.. . . have you checked the price of a new Cessna? Even with the weak dollar,
compared to the aluminum stuff new gliders still look pretty good.

bumper
Quiet Vent kit & MKII "high tech" yaw string (the cheapest toys you can get
for your glider)

On Oct 30, 10:41 pm, "bumper" wrote:
Back when I worked for a living (though some employees may think that never
occurred), it was convenient to slip off to the airport and pull the Stemme
out of the T-hangar. Unfolding the wings took minutes, pre-flight a bit
longer, but altogether much less time and effort than rigging a glider.

The Stemme allowed me to go soaring as easily as pulling a Mooney out of the
hangar. It also allowed operations at a tower controlled airport (Napa, CA)
with no hassles either as a power plane taxiing out or, a few hours later,
as a glider returning to land. There's no way I could have enjoyed such
spur-of-the-moment soaring with the ASH26E I own now.

The Stemme S10-VT is uniquely capable when it comes to ground handling,
cruising under power, cruise climb to high altitude (great for saw-tooth
eating distance), and soaring performance including high speed polar. All of
this capability rolled into one package does come at a price. Systems are
complex and ship maintenance shouldn't be ignored. Yearly maintenance costs,
while not a deal breaker, will be significantly more that with a pylon
self-launcher.

So why did I sell the Stemme for a ASH26? I retired and moved to Minden, so
some of the Stemme's advantages were no longer needed. I continue to fly the
26E alongside my Stemme friends. The ships perform very similarly, though
the 26E will outclimb the S-10 in smaller or weaker thermals. Running
between thermals at 90 knots, the sink rate is so close it's hard to tell a
difference.

Under power there is no comparison. The S10-VT easily climbs at 90 - 100
knots and is still going strong at 18K. In level cruise it easily does 125
knots without pushing hard. The ASH26E can climb 8K AGL if you're patient.
In level cruise it'll do 70 knots (due to the climb prop). On the plus side,
my 26E has been very reliable.

Yup, I lived through the VT's early-on prop, gear box recalls and most of
the AD's. Even so, if I needed the capabilities of the Stemme I'd consider
buying another.

As far a bemoaning the prices of self-launchers and motorgliders in general
. . . have you checked the price of a new Cessna? Even with the weak dollar,
compared to the aluminum stuff new gliders still look pretty good.

bumper
Quiet Vent kit & MKII "high tech" yaw string (the cheapest toys you can get
for your glider)

Bumper,
As usual you are right on. My situation is more like yours when you
operated out of Napa. Also like you, my living situation may change
when I retire. That would change my requirements and a self launcher
would be more acceptable.
Dan