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#31
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Safety pilot "flight time"
Yes, please post the entire letter.
"Bob Moore" wrote in message 46.128... | Jim Macklin wrote | A safety pilot who is not a CFI should log that time as SIC | because that is what it is. Required crew member not | manipulating the controls. | | Bull****!!! | | I'll post the entire opinion if you need it. | | Bob Moore | | Here is the Chief Counsel decision on the matter: | | --- | October 30, l992 | | | Mr. David M. Reid | | | Dear Mr. Reid: | | Clip...Clip....Clip | | Therefore, while it is not possible for two pilots to act as PIC | simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to log PIC flight | time simultaneously. PIC flight time may be logged by both the | PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft | during flight time in accordance with FAR 1.1, and by the pilot | who acts as the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft | for which the pilot is rated under FAR 61.51. Enclosed please | find two prior FAA interpretations concerning logging of PIC | time. We hope that these will be of further assistance to you. | | In your second question you ask "[h]ow shall two Private Pilots | log their flight time when one pilot is under the hood for | simulated instrument time and the other pilot acts as safety | pilot?" The answer is the pilot who is under the hood may log | PIC time for that flight time in which he is the sole manipulator | of the controls of the aircraft, provided he is rated for that | aircraft. The appropriately rated safety pilot may concurrently | log as second in command (SIC) that time during which he is | acting as safety pilot. | | The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight | that the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the | operation and safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this | is done, then the safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC | time in accordance with FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may | log, concurrently, all of the flight time during which he is the | sole manipulator of the controls as PIC time in accordance with | FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i). |
#32
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Safety pilot "flight time"
The PILOT IN COMMAND, responsible for the flight may not be
able to LOG the PIC TIME I.A.W. FAR 61.51 unless he meets the total rule. Manipulation of the controls is an essential part of the logging of PIC time EXCEPT for the two exceptions given to CFIs and to the extent of certain commercial operations requiring an ATP, in those cases an ATP who has been designated as PIC remains pilot in command up to the moment of the completion of the flight, and the departure of the passengers safely at the destination. 61.51 e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person- (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges; "Mark Hansen" wrote in message ... | On 01/22/07 12:49, Jim Macklin wrote: | FAR 1.1 does not and is not controlling for the PURPOSE of | logging flight time. Logging time is required only to show | compliance with some regulation for some certificate or | privilege. To that end, 61.51 is controlling. 61.51 | requires manipulation of the controls to LOG PIC. | | Perhaps you should either cite the legal counsel's letter or | re-read it. | | Actually, I've read 61.51. Can you please state where it says | that the PIC must be manipulating the controls? | | I've already shown you where it says he doesn't. It's your turn ;-) |
#33
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Safety pilot "flight time"
"As I've said before, 61.51 (e) (1) (iii) says that the
pilot not flying can log PIC during the time the pilot flying is under the hood so long as both pilots agree that the pilot flying is acting as PIC and the pilot not flying meets the other requirements (certs, ratings, etc.)" No, it does not say that the safety pilot can log PIC, it says that in order to log PIC, any pilot not holding a CFI [or an ATP in airline service], must be mani[pulating the controls. (e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, | recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log | pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which | that person- | | (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft | for which the pilot is rated or has privileges; "Mark Hansen" wrote in message ... | On 01/22/07 13:01, Jim Macklin wrote: | You cite the rule, that by the two exceptions the FAA lists | for logging time as PIC when not manipulating the controls, | allow logging that time as PIC just because two bozos agree | to both log PIC time beforehand. | | We're weren't talking about bozos. We were talking about Pilots. | | | It is legal to log the time under the requirement of 91.109 | but 91`.109 does not state whether that loggable time is PIC | or SIC. | | That's right - it doesn't. However, 61.51 says that it can be | logged as PIC (under the conditions mentioned earlier). | | | Once again, you've simply copied the existing FARs without noting | the specific FAR which supports your point. | | Are you able to cite the specific FAR are aren't you? | | As I've said before, 61.51 (e) (1) (iii) says that the pilot not | flying can log PIC during the time the pilot flying is under the | hood so long as both pilots agree that the pilot flying is acting | as PIC and the pilot not flying meets the other requirements (certs, | ratings, etc.) | | | Title 14: Aeronautics and Space | PART 61-CERTIFICATION: PILOTS, FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS, AND | GROUND INSTRUCTORS | Subpart A-General | | Browse Previous | Browse Next | | | ? 61.51 Pilot logbooks. | (a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person | must document and record the following time in a manner | acceptable to the Administrator: | | (1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the | requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of | this part. | | (2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the | recent flight experience requirements of this part. | | (b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the | requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person | must enter the following information for each flight or | lesson logged: | | (1) General- | | (i) Date. | | (ii) Total flight time or lesson time. | | (iii) Location where the aircraft departed and arrived, or | for lessons in a flight simulator or flight training device, | the location where the lesson occurred. | | (iv) Type and identification of aircraft, flight simulator, | or flight training device, as appropriate. | | (v) The name of a safety pilot, if required by ?91.109(b) of | this chapter. | | (2) Type of pilot experience or training- | | (i) Solo. | | (ii) Pilot in command. | | (iii) Second in command. | | (iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized | instructor. | | (v) Training received in a flight simulator or flight | training device from an authorized instructor. | | (3) Conditions of flight- | | (i) Day or night. | | (ii) Actual instrument. | | (iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight | simulator, or a flight training device. | | (c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this | section may be used to: | | (1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part | or a privilege authorized under this part; or | | (2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of | this part. | | (d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot | performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship | requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may | log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot | is the sole occupant of the aircraft. | | (e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, | recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log | pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which | that person- | | (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft | for which the pilot is rated or has privileges; | | (ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or | | (iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in | command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is | required under the type certification of the aircraft or the | regulations under which the flight is conducted. | | (2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command | time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command | of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot | certificate. | | (3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command | time all flight time while acting as an authorized | instructor. | | (4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when | the student pilot- | | (i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing | the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more | than one pilot flight crewmember; | | (ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under | ?61.87 of this part; and | | (iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or | rating. | | (f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log | second-in-command time only for that flight time during | which that person: | | (1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command | requirements of ?61.55 of this part, and occupies a | crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than | one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or | | (2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument | rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) | for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is | required under the type certification of the aircraft or the | regulations under which the flight is being conducted. | | (g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log | instrument time only for that flight time when the person | operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments | under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions. | | (2) An authorized instructor may log instrument time when | conducting instrument flight instruction in actual | instrument flight conditions. | | (3) For the purposes of logging instrument time to meet the | recent instrument experience requirements of ?61.57(c) of | this part, the following information must be recorded in the | person's logbook- | | (i) The location and type of each instrument approach | accomplished; and | | (ii) The name of the safety pilot, if required. | | (4) A flight simulator or approved flight training device | may be used by a person to log instrument time, provided an | authorized instructor is present during the simulated | flight. | | (h) Logging training time. (1) A person may log training | time when that person receives training from an authorized | instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight | training device. | | (2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must: | | (i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized | instructor; and | | (ii) Include a description of the training given, the length | of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's | signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration | date. | | (i) Presentation of required documents. (1) Persons must | present their pilot certificate, medical certificate, | logbook, or any other record required by this part for | inspection upon a reasonable request by- | | (i) The Administrator; | | (ii) An authorized representative from the National | Transportation Safety Board; or | | (iii) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer. | | (2) A student pilot must carry the following items in the | aircraft on all solo cross-country flights as evidence of | the required authorized instructor clearances and | endorsements- | | (i) Pilot logbook; | | (ii) Student pilot certificate; and | | (iii) Any other record required by this section. | | (3) A sport pilot must carry his or her logbook or other | evidence of required authorized instructor endorsements on | all flights. | | (4) A recreational pilot must carry his or her logbook with | the required authorized instructor endorsements on all solo | flights- | | (i) That exceed 50 nautical miles from the airport at which | training was received; | | (ii) Within airspace that requires communication with air | traffic control; | | (iii) Conducted between sunset and sunrise; or | | (iv) In an aircraft for which the pilot does not hold an | appropriate category or class rating. | | (5) A flight instructor with a sport pilot rating must carry | his or her logbook or other evidence of required authorized | instructor endorsements on all flights when providing flight | training. | | [Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997; Amdt. 61-103, 62 | FR 40897, July 30, 1997; Amdt. 61-104, 63 FR 20286, Apr. 23, | 1998; Amdt. 61-110, 69 FR 44865, July 27, 2004] | | | Browse Previous | Browse Next | | ? 91.109 Flight instruction; Simulated instrument flight | and certain flight tests. | (a) No person may operate a civil aircraft (except a manned | free balloon) that is being used for flight instruction | unless that aircraft has fully functioning dual controls. | However, instrument flight instruction may be given in a | single-engine airplane equipped with a single, functioning | throwover control wheel in place of fixed, dual controls of | the elevator and ailerons when- | | (1) The instructor has determined that the flight can be | conducted safely; and | | (2) The person manipulating the controls has at least a | private pilot certificate with appropriate category and | class ratings. | | (b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated | instrument flight unless- | | (1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who | possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category | and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown. | | (2) The safety pilot has adequate vision forward and to each | side of the aircraft, or a competent observer in the | aircraft adequately supplements the vision of the safety | pilot; and | | (3) Except in the case of lighter-than-air aircraft, that | aircraft is equipped with fully functioning dual controls. | However, simulated instrument flight may be conducted in a | single-engine airplane, equipped with a single, functioning, | throwover control wheel, in place of fixed, dual controls of | the elevator and ailerons, when- | | (i) The safety pilot has determined that the flight can be | conducted safely; and | | (ii) The person manipulating the controls has at least a | private pilot certificate with appropriate category and | class ratings. | | (c) No person may operate a civil aircraft that is being | used for a flight test for an airline transport pilot | certificate or a class or type rating on that certificate, | or for a part 121 proficiency flight test, unless the pilot | seated at the controls, other than the pilot being checked, | is fully qualified to act as pilot in command of the | aircraft. | | | | FAR 1.1 (does not refer to logging time0 | | Pilot in command means the person who: | | (1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation | and safety of the flight; | | (2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during | the flight; and | | (3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, | if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight | | Second in command means a pilot who is designated to be | second in command of an aircraft during flight time. | | | | | "Mark Hansen" wrote in message | ... | | On 01/22/07 12:33, Jim Macklin wrote: | | You ignored my reasoned statements, so I said your | statement | | was BS. I stand by that. | | | | All the rules you cite require that to LOG PIC you must | be | | the pilot flying. | | | | Okay, that's a compelling argument. Can you please state | which | | FAR it is that states that to log PIC you must be the | pilot flying? | | | | I can't find it. | | | | | | | | Yes, you are looking, you are a | safety | | pilot. You are required to be there because the single | | pilot can't see outside. But unless the guy under the | hood | | is just sitting there while YOU do the flying, YOU can't | LOG | | PIC unless you hold a CFI or the flight is an airline | | training flight and you're the assigned PIC. | | | | Just because a second pilot is required by 91.109 does | not | | make that pilot time logable as PIC unless they are the | sole | | manipulator. | | | | Again, I think the FARs disagree with you. | | | | It is very possible that neither pilot can log PIC, but | the | | FAA will insist that at least one of them will be held | | responsible as PIC even if they can't log it. | | | | A safety pilot who is not a CFI should log that time as | SIC | | because that is what it is. Required crew member not | | manipulating the controls. | | | | | | | | "Ron Natalie" wrote in message | | m... | | | Jim Macklin wrote: | | | BS | | | | | | | | | | | | Well there's a reasoned and intelligent comment backed | up | | with facts. | | | 61.51(2)(iii), 61.52(3), and 61.51(4) all provide for | | logging PIC | | | when acting as PIC. In this case 61.51(2)(iii) | applies as | | the flight | | | is conducted under 61.109(2) which requires a second | | pilot. | | | | | | | | |
#34
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Safety pilot "flight time"
Jim Macklin wrote
Yes, please post the entire letter. How many times do we have to argue this issue? Every year? Here is the Chief Counsel decision on the matter: --- October 30, l992 Mr. David M. Reid Dear Mr. Reid: Thank you for your letter of June 12, 1992, concerning the logging of pilot-in-command (PIC) time under the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR). In your letter you ask four questions. First, you ask whether there are "any circumstances when, during a normal flight, two Private Pilots may simultaneously act as (and therefore log the time as) Pilot-In-Command?" The answer is two private pilots may not simultaneously act as PIC but they may, under certain circumstances, simultaneously log PIC time. There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC time. PIC, as defined in FAR 1.1, means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time. FAR 61.51 deals with logging PIC flight time, and it provides that a private or commercial pilot may log as PIC time only that flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated, or when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or when he acts as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted. It is important to note that FAR 61.51 only regulates the recording of PIC time used to meet the requirements toward a higher certificate, higher rating, or for recent flight experience. Therefore, while it is not possible for two pilots to act as PIC simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to log PIC flight time simultaneously. PIC flight time may be logged by both the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time in accordance with FAR 1.1, and by the pilot who acts as the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft for which the pilot is rated under FAR 61.51. Enclosed please find two prior FAA interpretations concerning logging of PIC time. We hope that these will be of further assistance to you. In your second question you ask "[h]ow shall two Private Pilots log their flight time when one pilot is under the hood for simulated instrument time and the other pilot acts as safety pilot?" The answer is the pilot who is under the hood may log PIC time for that flight time in which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft, provided he is rated for that aircraft. The appropriately rated safety pilot may concurrently log as second in command (SIC) that time during which he is acting as safety pilot. The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight that the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i). Enclosed please find a prior FAA interpretation concerning the logging of flight time under simulated instrument flight conditions. We hope that this interpretation will be of further assistance to you. In your third question you ask "[d]uring instrument training, how shall a VFR Private Pilot log the following flight time: Pilot-In- Command time, Simulated Instrument time, and Actual Instrument time, when that pilot is...A)...under the hood? B)...in actual instrument conditions? C)...under the hood in actual instrument conditions?" The answer is the VFR private pilot may log all of the flight time you described as PIC flight time under FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) if he was the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated. Under FAR 61.51(c)(4) the pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions. Please note that the FARs do not distinguish between "actual" and "simulated" instrument flight time. Enclosed is a prior FAA interpretation concerning the logging of instrument flight time. We hope this interpretation will further assist you. Finally you ask "[d]oes FAR 61.57 affect how the VFR Private Pilot shall log Pilot-In-Command time during instrument training, either before or after meeting the 6/6/6 requirement, and if so, how?" FAR 61.57 does not affect how a pilot logs PIC time during instrument training; FAR 61.51(c)(2) and (4) govern logging of instrument flight time. FAR 61.57(e) provides currency requirements for acting as PIC under instrument flight rules (IFR) or in weather conditions less than the minimums for visual flight rules (VFR). Enclosed please find a prior FAA interpretation on instrument flight time and FAR 61.57(e). We hope this interpretation will further assist you. We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions. Sincerely, Donald P. Byrne Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations Division |
#35
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Safety pilot "flight time"
On 01/22/07 14:34, Jim Macklin wrote:
The PILOT IN COMMAND, responsible for the flight may not be able to LOG the PIC TIME I.A.W. FAR 61.51 unless he meets the total rule. Are you suggesting that for a pilot to log PIC time, according to 61.51 (e) (1), that the pilot must meet (i) (ii) and (iii) - All Three? I must assume then that you do not know what the word "or" means, so I'm going to bow out of this discussion. Best Regards, Manipulation of the controls is an essential part of the logging of PIC time EXCEPT for the two exceptions given to CFIs and to the extent of certain commercial operations requiring an ATP, in those cases an ATP who has been designated as PIC remains pilot in command up to the moment of the completion of the flight, and the departure of the passengers safely at the destination. 61.51 e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person- (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges; "Mark Hansen" wrote in message ... | On 01/22/07 12:49, Jim Macklin wrote: | FAR 1.1 does not and is not controlling for the PURPOSE of | logging flight time. Logging time is required only to show | compliance with some regulation for some certificate or | privilege. To that end, 61.51 is controlling. 61.51 | requires manipulation of the controls to LOG PIC. | | Perhaps you should either cite the legal counsel's letter or | re-read it. | | Actually, I've read 61.51. Can you please state where it says | that the PIC must be manipulating the controls? | | I've already shown you where it says he doesn't. It's your turn ;-) -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA |
#36
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Safety pilot "flight time"
You may be pilot in command many times when you cannot log
that time. There are two kinds of pilot in command. There is pilot experience pilot in command and there is who the hell goes to jail pilot in command. One is pilot experience and one is legal responsibility. They may be the same person and they may be two or more different people. FAR 91.109 allows the safety pilot, as a required crew member to log the time in accordance with 61.51, but 61.51 STILL requires that actual sole manipulations of the controls is required to log any PIC time that will apply to a rating, currency or other purpose. Just because two pilots agree who will be RESPONSIBLE for the flight, they cannot alter FAR 61.51 as to who can log pilot experience PIC time. If the FAA finds that you have logged time improperly, they may disallow any or all the time in question. If ratings have been issued, they can be revoked. If fraud is present [not merely an innocent error] and flight operations have been conducted, serious legal action may be taken by the FAA. "Mark Hansen" wrote in message ... | On 01/22/07 14:03, Mark Hansen wrote: | On 01/22/07 13:01, Jim Macklin wrote: | You cite the rule, that by the two exceptions the FAA lists | for logging time as PIC when not manipulating the controls, | allow logging that time as PIC just because two bozos agree | to both log PIC time beforehand. | | We're weren't talking about bozos. We were talking about Pilots. | | | It is legal to log the time under the requirement of 91.109 | but 91`.109 does not state whether that loggable time is PIC | or SIC. | | That's right - it doesn't. However, 61.51 says that it can be | logged as PIC (under the conditions mentioned earlier). | | | Once again, you've simply copied the existing FARs without noting | the specific FAR which supports your point. | | Are you able to cite the specific FAR are aren't you? | | As I've said before, 61.51 (e) (1) (iii) says that the pilot not | flying can log PIC during the time the pilot flying is under the | hood so long as both pilots agree that the pilot flying is acting | ^^^^^^^^^^^^ | | Oops, this should have been pilot not flying, of course. | | as PIC and the pilot not flying meets the other requirements (certs, | ratings, etc.) | | |
#37
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Safety pilot "flight time"
Thank you for posting the letter. I agrees with my position
IMHO. The question is whether you note the time as 61.51 or 1.1 time. I wonder what cases have gone through in the past 14 years to further clarify the issue? "Bob Moore" wrote in message 46.128... | Jim Macklin wrote | Yes, please post the entire letter. | | How many times do we have to argue this issue? | Every year? | | Here is the Chief Counsel decision on the matter: | | --- | October 30, l992 | | | Mr. David M. Reid | | | Dear Mr. Reid: | | Thank you for your letter of June 12, 1992, concerning the | logging of pilot-in-command (PIC) time under the Federal Aviation | Regulations (FAR). | | In your letter you ask four questions. First, you ask whether | there are "any circumstances when, during a normal flight, two | Private Pilots may simultaneously act as (and therefore log the | time as) Pilot-In-Command?" The answer is two private pilots may | not simultaneously act as PIC but they may, under certain | circumstances, simultaneously log PIC time. | | There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC | time. PIC, as defined in FAR 1.1, means the pilot responsible | for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time. | FAR 61.51 deals with logging PIC flight time, and it provides | that a private or commercial pilot may log as PIC time only that | flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the | controls of an aircraft for which he is rated, or when he is the | sole occupant of the aircraft, or when he acts as PIC of an | aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type | certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the | flight is conducted. It is important to note that FAR 61.51 only | regulates the recording of PIC time used to meet the requirements | toward a higher certificate, higher rating, or for recent flight | experience. | | Therefore, while it is not possible for two pilots to act as PIC | simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to log PIC flight | time simultaneously. PIC flight time may be logged by both the | PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft | during flight time in accordance with FAR 1.1, and by the pilot | who acts as the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft | for which the pilot is rated under FAR 61.51. Enclosed please | find two prior FAA interpretations concerning logging of PIC | time. We hope that these will be of further assistance to you. | | In your second question you ask "[h]ow shall two Private Pilots | log their flight time when one pilot is under the hood for | simulated instrument time and the other pilot acts as safety | pilot?" The answer is the pilot who is under the hood may log | PIC time for that flight time in which he is the sole manipulator | of the controls of the aircraft, provided he is rated for that | aircraft. The appropriately rated safety pilot may concurrently | log as second in command (SIC) that time during which he is | acting as safety pilot. | | The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight | that the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the | operation and safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this | is done, then the safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC | time in accordance with FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may | log, concurrently, all of the flight time during which he is the | sole manipulator of the controls as PIC time in accordance with | FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i). Enclosed please find a prior FAA | interpretation concerning the logging of flight time under | simulated instrument flight conditions. We hope that this | interpretation will be of further assistance to you. | | In your third question you ask "[d]uring instrument training, how | shall a VFR Private Pilot log the following flight time: Pilot-In- | Command time, Simulated Instrument time, and Actual Instrument | time, when that pilot is...A)...under the hood? B)...in actual | instrument conditions? C)...under the hood in actual instrument | conditions?" The answer is the VFR private pilot may log all of | the flight time you described as PIC flight time under FAR | 61.51(c)(2)(i) if he was the sole manipulator of the controls of | an aircraft for which he is rated. Under FAR 61.51(c)(4) the | pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during | which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to | instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight | conditions. Please note that the FARs do not distinguish between | "actual" and "simulated" instrument flight time. Enclosed is a | prior FAA interpretation concerning the logging of instrument | flight time. We hope this interpretation will further assist | you. | | Finally you ask "[d]oes FAR 61.57 affect how the VFR Private | Pilot shall log Pilot-In-Command time during instrument training, | either before or after meeting the 6/6/6 requirement, and if so, | how?" FAR 61.57 does not affect how a pilot logs PIC time during | instrument training; FAR 61.51(c)(2) and | (4) govern logging of instrument flight time. FAR 61.57(e) | provides currency requirements for acting as PIC under instrument | flight rules (IFR) or in weather conditions less than the | minimums for visual flight rules (VFR). Enclosed | please find a prior FAA interpretation on instrument flight time | and FAR 61.57(e). We hope this interpretation will further | assist you. | | We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions. | | Sincerely, | | Donald P. Byrne | Assistant Chief Counsel | Regulations Division | | | |
#38
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Safety pilot "flight time"
My question was actually what to put in the "flight duration" or "total
flight time" field of your logbook, if anything. For example, I have a friend who wants to start his instrument rating. I want to fly with him between his CFI lessons to let him practice and give tips. If I can log "flight time" along with the "PIC" (when he's under the hood) to get time towards a higher rating, that would be great. Should the "flight time" be equal to the PIC (him under the hood)? I think the FAA or AOPA should come out with a quick reference card for this sort of thing! Bob Moore wrote: Jim Macklin wrote Yes, please post the entire letter. How many times do we have to argue this issue? Every year? |
#39
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Safety pilot "flight time"
kevmor wrote: My question was actually what to put in the "flight duration" or "total flight time" field of your logbook, if anything. For example, I have a friend who wants to start his instrument rating. I want to fly with him between his CFI lessons to let him practice and give tips. If I can log "flight time" along with the "PIC" (when he's under the hood) to get time towards a higher rating, that would be great. Should the "flight time" be equal to the PIC (him under the hood)? That's what nearly everybody does. Log what you fly and don't worry about it. |
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Safety pilot "flight time"
On 01/22/07 17:02, kevmor wrote:
My question was actually what to put in the "flight duration" or "total flight time" field of your logbook, if anything. For example, I have a friend who wants to start his instrument rating. I want to fly with him between his CFI lessons to let him practice and give tips. If I can log "flight time" along with the "PIC" (when he's under the hood) to get time towards a higher rating, that would be great. Should the "flight time" be equal to the PIC (him under the hood)? If you agree before the flight that you will be PIC while he is under the hood, then you can log it as PIC for the time that he is under the hood. If he remains PIC for the flight, then you can log as SIC the time that he is under the hood. I think the FAA or AOPA should come out with a quick reference card for this sort of thing! Well, that's probably true of a lot of areas. Also, there's a lot of differing opinions here. The FAA does, from time to time, write legal opinions on subjects where the FARs are not very clear. Bob Moore was kind enough to post the results of one which is appropriate to this discussion. Bob Moore wrote: Jim Macklin wrote Yes, please post the entire letter. How many times do we have to argue this issue? Every year? -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA |
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