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#1
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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered
While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was
going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/ spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct? (Not that I intend to make it a practice.) |
#2
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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered
Are you suggesting you can't stall with a centered ball? Go slow
enough, and in a steep turn the stall will put your stomach in your throat. On Mar 11, 11:23*pm, skym wrote: While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as possible. *I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/ spin by some pilots in this situation, *I kept thinking that if I keep the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and not auger in. *Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct? (Not that I intend to make it a practice.) |
#3
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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered
No, certainly not.
Stall speed increases dramatically with angle of bank: the more vertical your wings become, the less horizontal lift they supply for a given air speed. You can definitely stall with the ball centered. This is true regardless of bank angle. If you do stall below TPA (like when turning base to final) your odds of auguring in are high no matter how neatly centered your ball was when you initiated the stall. On Mar 11, 8:23 pm, skym wrote: While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/ spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct? (Not that I intend to make it a practice.) |
#4
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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered
skym wrote:
While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/ spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct? (Not that I intend to make it a practice.) What happens to stall speed as your bank angle increases? What are two options to preventing a stall (regardless of whether a spin in entered)? Ron Lee |
#5
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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered
Thanks for replies. I had meant to address the speed issue since I
knew the stall speed increased with bank. I also kept my speed higher than normal in the turn because of that. I left it out of the question, and shouldn't have. Assuming I keep the speed up, is the centered ball a reliable guide? |
#6
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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered
skym wrote:
While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/ spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct? (Not that I intend to make it a practice.) Ask your instructor to explain to you what happens to the stall speed in a LEVEL turn as opposed to the stall speed in an unloaded gliding turn from base to final. This is a distinction you should definitely be aware of. -- Dudley Henriques |
#7
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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered
In article ,
Dudley Henriques wrote: skym wrote: While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/ spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct? (Not that I intend to make it a practice.) Ask your instructor to explain to you what happens to the stall speed in a LEVEL turn as opposed to the stall speed in an unloaded gliding turn from base to final. This is a distinction you should definitely be aware of. Dudley, I'm not sure what you mean by "unloaded gliding turn". As long as your descent rate is constant, the loading in a turn is exactly the same as it is during level flight. A turn is only unloaded if your descent rate is increasing, as it is during the second quadrant of a lazy eight. But, most people don't fly their base-to-final turns like that; they fly them at a (more or less) constant descent rate. Either that, or I'm mis-understanding what you're trying to say. |
#8
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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered
Roy Smith wrote:
In article , Dudley Henriques wrote: skym wrote: While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/ spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct? (Not that I intend to make it a practice.) Ask your instructor to explain to you what happens to the stall speed in a LEVEL turn as opposed to the stall speed in an unloaded gliding turn from base to final. This is a distinction you should definitely be aware of. Dudley, I'm not sure what you mean by "unloaded gliding turn". As long as your descent rate is constant, the loading in a turn is exactly the same as it is during level flight. A turn is only unloaded if your descent rate is increasing, as it is during the second quadrant of a lazy eight. But, most people don't fly their base-to-final turns like that; they fly them at a (more or less) constant descent rate. Either that, or I'm mis-understanding what you're trying to say. The situation I'm describing can occur if you are high as well as wide. Trading off the altitude by unloading the wings as you turn, you are in effect doing a gentle last half of a lazy eight, although very shallow. Unless you can unload the wings by lowering the nose, you are absolutely correct. Everything is the same g wise. The only reason I mentioned this is so that he gets squared away on the different scenarios concerning the base to final turn. Many students get into a deep fear about base to final turns and bank thinking all they need to do is increase the bank and they are on the stall speed increase with g graph. This is true for a level turn and even a loaded descending turn, but many times on an approach, a pilot can make the energy tradeoff saving the turn by unloading in the turn and letting the nose drop scrubbing off some altitude while neutralizing the bank g increase. -- Dudley Henriques |
#9
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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered
On Mar 11, 7:23 pm, skym wrote:
While making a turn to base and final recently, I was aware that I was going to be wide with my normal turn from downwind through base to final, so I banked more to keep as close to the runway centerline as possible. I kept thinking about the infamous and usually fatal stall/ spin by some pilots in this situation, I kept thinking that if I keep the ball centered, even with a very steep bank, that I would be ok and not auger in. Some of you instructors and old pros...is this correct? (Not that I intend to make it a practice.) Depends on the A/C, what were you flying? In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in a trainer I'd suggest 2g max. Ken |
#10
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Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered
The absolute best way to find out what will happen is to take an
instructor and go out and do steep turns until you stall it... Obviously, with adequate altitude... One of the things you will find is that it is down right hard to stall the plane in a coordinated turn at a normal approach speed... You will need to have the yoke back into your gut and ignore all the G's and the complaining and shaking the airframe will be making... Now, that isn't to say you can't stall it, but you will have to be blind and deaf and have a numb butt to do it accidentally... The other thing you will find is that it is easier to do it in an uncoordinated turn, but it still takes determination and ignoring the airframe shaking like a wet dog... "So, how did Harry Dumbass manage to ignore this and kill himself and his passengers by turning his fork tailed doctor killer into a lawn dart?", you ask... Ahh, I'm glad you asked that... Ya see, Harry is both high because he is in close and about to over run the centerline because he is in close... So, being a hotshot pilot, he chops the throttle, rolls into a hard bank, and stands on the bottom rudder... About halfway around he realizes his descent rate has gone off the peg and he is now going to be way short - so he solves that by pulling the nose up! Close your eyes and picture it... The bottom wing snap stalls without so much as a warning shudder (because the horizontal stab is still flying) , they whip over inverted, and it is all over but the screaming... denny |
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