barrel roll in 172

Dudley

Can it be said?

In a Barrel Roll the ball starts centered and stays centered
throughout the roll until aircraft returns to straight and level
flight and starts some other maneuver.

In a Slow Roll (sometimes called Point Roll) the ball starts centered
and is then never centered except momentarily when bird has rolled 180
degrees and is inverted, until completion of roll and return to
straight and level flight?

Rolls are easy to explain face to face in briefing using hands or
models and demo in air, but over Internet the nuances of English make
it difficult.

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 14:43:10 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

Ron;
I think what might be happening here is that some folks are defining the
roll from the set point rather than from level flight. It's true that any
raising of the nose from level flight will require more than 1 g, but once
at the set point and initiating the roll (aileron roll) you can unload the
airplane all the way down to 0 g if you like right up to the backside
recovery to level flight, where the g of course has to be returned.
Dudley Henriques

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
om...
Big John wrote:
Andrey

As has been said in all the posts, the short answer is NO. 172 is not
certified to do barrel rolls.

However I can barrel roll a 172 only pulling 1 G which puts no more
load on airframe than straight and level flight. I have thousands of
hours to back up my statement.

No you can not.

It's not possible to even start the roll without going greater
than 1G.

Morgans wrote:
"john smith" wrote

Certified? No.
Possible? Yes, but you will finish much lower than where you started.

Don't encourage that type of behavior with a yes. If he had to ask, he is
probably not a competent aerobatic pilot, and a blown barrel roll could
stall the plane, or overstress it, so it fails then, or later.

I'll bet he is not going to wear a parachute, either, which is required.

The answer to rolling a normal category plane should be no, always.

We don't want his, or someone else's blood on our hands.

I am wondering why, if one may spin a 172, why one may not roll a 172 ...

Already went looking and found it. As Shake Spear said, a
pig pen smells just like a sty. Or was it roses?


"Morgans" wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:Ol5wg.79455$ZW3.31376@dukeread04...
| I've always used rudder and elevator to hold the nose on
a
| point when rolling, the roll being done with aileron and
the
| nose held on the point with sometime uncoordinated use
of
| the controls. I've never flown in competition. Never
done
| slow or hesitation rolls. If I had my way, I'd do a
hundred
| hammerheads for every roll.
|
| I had called that an aileron roll, but from the site, that
is a slow roll,
| even if it is done fast! g
|
| Which acro site, give a link and I'll check it out.
|
| http://www.iac.org/begin/figures.html#Aileron%20Rolls
|
| Good site.
| --
| Jim in NC
|

Yep, I used the wrong word/name. Of course the redneck roll
is finding a drunk to pay your bar bill.



"Big John" wrote in message
...
|
| Jim
|
| You explained what has been known as a 'slow roll' since I
started
| flying heavy iron in the 40's. Have heard them called
point rolls also
| but only on rare occasions.
|
| I thinK Stephen may be a Troll from his postings. I'm
going to stop
| trying to feed him (
|
| Big John
| `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ```````
|
| On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 09:17:40 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
| wrote:
|
| I've always used rudder and elevator to hold the nose on
a
| point when rolling, the roll being done with aileron and
the
| nose held on the point with sometime uncoordinated use of
| the controls. I've never flown in competition. Never
done
| slow or hesitation rolls. If I had my way, I'd do a
hundred
| hammerheads for every roll.
|
| Which acro site, give a link and I'll check it out.
|

Because Cessna didn't make it in the aerobatic category.



"Terry" wrote in message
...
| Morgans wrote:
| "john smith" wrote
|
| Certified? No.
| Possible? Yes, but you will finish much lower than
where you started.
|
| Don't encourage that type of behavior with a yes. If he
had to ask, he is
| probably not a competent aerobatic pilot, and a blown
barrel roll could
| stall the plane, or overstress it, so it fails then, or
later.
|
| I'll bet he is not going to wear a parachute, either,
which is required.
|
| The answer to rolling a normal category plane should be
no, always.
|
| We don't want his, or someone else's blood on our hands.
|
| I am wondering why, if one may spin a 172, why one may not
roll a 172 ...

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 13:14:38 -0700, Terry wrote
in ::

I am wondering why, if one may spin a 172, why one may not roll a 172 ...

From: "Jim Macklin"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: barrel roll in 172
Message-ID: 2SQvg.78944$ZW3.35114@dukeread04
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 14:31:05 -0500

The issue is recovery from a botched barrel roll, such as in
inverted stall followed by a high speed dive and too strong
a pull on recovery.


For what maximum negative G load is the a C-172 certified in Utility
Category? For what absolute maximum negative G load is the C-172
designed?


From: Big John
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: barrel roll in 172
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 14:27:19 -0500
Message-ID:


My 1971 172/Skyhawk Owneers [sic] manual shows:

Utility Caategory [sic] Maneuvers

Max pos G's = 4.4
Chandelles
Lazy Eights
Steep Turns
Spins
Stalls (Except whip stalls)

Acrobatics that may impose high loads should not be attempted.

Bob Moore wrote:
T o d d P a t t i s t wrote

A barrel roll is often described as: "imagine the wheels of
the aircraft rolling on the inside of a barrel." In
Dudley's description of the classic competition BR, the
track of those wheels is going perpendicular to the axis of
the barrel at the top, straight down the axis of the barrel
at the beginning and end, and the barrel is perfectly round.
In Dudley's expanded description of the BR (as any roll in
3D) the track might not be perpendicular at the top and the
barrel might not be perfectly round.


Todd, in your example, the wheels would "scuff" around the
inside of the barrel. In order to roll around the inside of
the barrel. The starting heading must be some number of degrees
off the axis of the barrel, 45 degrees in the classic example.

At the top of the barrel, the heading would have changed by 90
degrees, but would be 45 degrees off the axis of the barrel on
the other side.

Yes, the "classic" barrel roll is a helix and the angle to the
longitudinal axis should remain constant.

Matt

Ron Natalie wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:

Your thousands of hours aside, this is simply an incorrect statement.
A barrel roll requires flying a loop and you can't fly a loop at 1 G.
It sounds like you are describing an aileron roll.

You can't even do an aileron roll without exceeding 1G.
Small g's sure, but you gotta go 1 to do just about anything.

Yes, for an aileron roll as you have to raise the nose at the start.
However, a slow roll should be able to be flown at 1G throughout, but it
would probably take someone of Hoover's (or Dudley's) skill to do it.
If you kept the center of mass of the airplane on the straight and level
track you are flying at the start, it would be 1G. The 1G wouldn't
always be positive with respect to the top of the airplane, however, so
I guess I should say |a|=1G :-)


Matt

Bob Moore wrote:

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote


Starting the BR with the aircraft track at 90 degrees to the
barrel produces a loop (no roll portion to the BR).
Starting it parallel to the barrel (and reducing the
diameter of the barrel to zero) makes it into an aileron
roll (no loop portion to the BR). Everything in between is
possible, and at some point on either side as you get closer
to the loop or aileron roll, you've got to stop calling it a
BR.


You might not have his thousands of hours, but you certainly
understand a lot more about barrel rolls than does Big John.
:-) :-) Of course, what can you expect from a person who flys
"birds" instead of "airplanes". :-)

May be some definitions...:-)

Barrel Roll....................45 degrees off axis
Aileron roll...................00 degrees off axis
Loop...........................90 degrees off axis
Sloppy barrel roll......22.5-67.5 degrees off axis
Sloppy aileron roll.......01-22.5 degrees off axis
Sloppy loop...............67.5-89 degrees off axis

I think I could do those last three!

Matt

Larry Dighera wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 16:49:49 GMT, Bob Moore
wrote in ::


May be some definitions...:-)

Barrel Roll....................45 degrees off axis
Aileron roll...................00 degrees off axis
Loop...........................90 degrees off axis
Sloppy barrel roll......22.5-67.5 degrees off axis
Sloppy aileron roll.......01-22.5 degrees off axis
Sloppy loop...............67.5-89 degrees off axis


This refers to the direction of flight relative to the longitudinal
axis of the aircraft?


No, the longitudinal axis of the invisible barrel in the sky.

Unless you are in a slip or skid or stall or spin (or probably other
things), the direction of flight is always 0 degrees off the
longitudinal axis of the airplane.

Matt