Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

Robert Danewid wrote:
Perhaps pilot skill was involved in the results (especially
for SS)??

Just my 3c worth....

Robert

Bruce Greef wrote:
Andy wrote:

Ben Flewett wrote:
ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely
does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8
(including high speed range). In fact, I would rate
it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison
to the D2 and LS8.


I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that
conclusion.

Andy

Having won the Omarama Grand Prix, with a current world ranking of #86 -
highest IGC ranking of #7 I believe. Contested World and European
contests in Discus 2s

I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations.

A quote from Pete Harvey - UK Racing pilot - on losing day 2 at
http://www.gp06.com/race_diary/diary_day2.htm
"It's so frustrating to be beaten at the last moment by the glider
type, not pilot skill." The Discus overtakes the LS8 on final glide."

From the results "SS" - ASW28 never got close.

just my 2c worth...

For Referrence - a simple google search would get you to a ~2700 hits
for Ben Flewett.
http://www.glidingteam.co.uk/competi...cle.php?id=183


http://www.fai.org/gliding/ben_flewett
http://www.gliding.co.nz/

Robert Danewid wrote:
Perhaps pilot skill was involved in the results (especially
for SS)??

Just my 3c worth....

Robert

Bruce Greef wrote:
Andy wrote:

Ben Flewett wrote:
ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely
does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8
(including high speed range). In fact, I would rate
it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison
to the D2 and LS8.


I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that
conclusion.

Andy

Having won the Omarama Grand Prix, with a current world ranking of #86 -
highest IGC ranking of #7 I believe. Contested World and European
contests in Discus 2s

I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations.

A quote from Pete Harvey - UK Racing pilot - on losing day 2 at
http://www.gp06.com/race_diary/diary_day2.htm
"It's so frustrating to be beaten at the last moment by the glider
type, not pilot skill." The Discus overtakes the LS8 on final glide."

From the results "SS" - ASW28 never got close.

just my 2c worth...

For Referrence - a simple google search would get you to a ~2700 hits
for Ben Flewett.
http://www.glidingteam.co.uk/competi...cle.php?id=183


http://www.fai.org/gliding/ben_flewett
http://www.gliding.co.nz/

Robert Danewid wrote:
Perhaps pilot skill was involved in the results (especially
for SS)??

Just my 3c worth....

Robert

Bruce Greef wrote:
Andy wrote:

Ben Flewett wrote:
ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely
does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8
(including high speed range). In fact, I would rate
it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison
to the D2 and LS8.


I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that
conclusion.

Andy

Having won the Omarama Grand Prix, with a current world ranking of #86 -
highest IGC ranking of #7 I believe. Contested World and European
contests in Discus 2s

I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations.

A quote from Pete Harvey - UK Racing pilot - on losing day 2 at
http://www.gp06.com/race_diary/diary_day2.htm
"It's so frustrating to be beaten at the last moment by the glider
type, not pilot skill." The Discus overtakes the LS8 on final glide."

From the results "SS" - ASW28 never got close.

just my 2c worth...

For Referrence - a simple google search would get you to a ~2700 hits
for Ben Flewett.
http://www.glidingteam.co.uk/competi...cle.php?id=183


http://www.fai.org/gliding/ben_flewett
http://www.gliding.co.nz/

Robert Danewid wrote:
Perhaps pilot skill was involved in the results (especially for SS)??

Just my 3c worth....

Robert

Bruce Greef wrote:

Andy wrote:

Ben Flewett wrote:
ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely
does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8
(including high speed range). In fact, I would rate
it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison
to the D2 and LS8.


I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that
conclusion.

Andy

Having won the Omarama Grand Prix, with a current world ranking of #86
- highest IGC ranking of #7 I believe. Contested World and European
contests in Discus 2s

I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations.

A quote from Pete Harvey - UK Racing pilot - on losing day 2 at
http://www.gp06.com/race_diary/diary_day2.htm
“It’s so frustrating to be beaten at the last moment by the glider
type, not pilot skill.” The Discus overtakes the LS8 on final glide."

From the results "SS" - ASW28 never got close.

just my 2c worth...

For Referrence - a simple google search would get you to a ~2700 hits
for Ben Flewett.
http://www.glidingteam.co.uk/competi...cle.php?id=183


http://www.fai.org/gliding/ben_flewett
http://www.gliding.co.nz/


Agreed - on the SS part I can't comment because I do not know Ms Pederson's
skill level. This was not a bunch of beginners (like me) though - so I am sure
she is a very competent contest pilot to have made the selection process...

So - skill probably dominates, and conversely the best pilots tend to choose the
best equipment for the conditions. If it is about speed, the Discus appears to
have a miniscule edge. When seconds count this is important.

Personally - For most people it is more important how you and the machine work.

Bruce Greef wrote:

I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations.

But I still don't know what his observations were, only what his
conclusion is. Has he flown multple contests with top ranking pilots
flying ASW28's or is the conclusion based on just flying with one
unknown pilot at his/her local airport. I'm not trying to be
difficult. I'd really like to know how he reached this conclusion
particularly as it does not agree with my observations based on several
hundred hours in type.


Andy

Originally Posted by Andy

Bruce Greef wrote:

I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations.

But I still don't know what his observations were, only what his
conclusion is. Has he flown multple contests with top ranking pilots
flying ASW28's or is the conclusion based on just flying with one
unknown pilot at his/her local airport. I'm not trying to be
difficult. I'd really like to know how he reached this conclusion
particularly as it does not agree with my observations based on several
hundred hours in type.


Andy

Mr Flewett won the most recent GP in NZ against the worlds best pilots.
Find the google valve, Andy, and release some air into the vacuum around
your part of the world, you may find it refreshing.

Bagmaker

Andy wrote:
Bruce Greef wrote:

I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations.


But I still don't know what his observations were, only what his
conclusion is. Has he flown multple contests with top ranking pilots
flying ASW28's or is the conclusion based on just flying with one
unknown pilot at his/her local airport. I'm not trying to be
difficult. I'd really like to know how he reached this conclusion
particularly as it does not agree with my observations based on several
hundred hours in type.


Andy

Andy, you don't get in the top 100, let alone the top 10 IGC rank without doing
an enormous amount of very competitive flying. The differences between the top
aircraft is very small - far less than that between pilots. Various people
maintain that the variation within a production run of a particular glider is
larger than the nominal difference between different makes.

So again - my observation is that when it comes to those aspects of performance
that favour top contest pilots in winning contests it appears that the D2 and
LS8 have the current edge. This is partially a self perpetuating thing, as they
build confidence and experience in and demand for these models - the up and
comings look at their choices when deciding what to fly to be competitive (as
evidenced in this discussion)and go out and fly what the winners are flying. In
the broader type of flying that the average pilot will do it is not nearly as
clear which glider is better - because the question becomes "Better at what?".

So for example - my personal aircraft is the Standard Cirrus that cleaned up in
the Southern Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) and South African contest scene in 1970-71
in the hands of Ted Pearson. Top pilot, and the best glider at the time for
winning contests. As a current club class 36 year old, with me in the seat (less
competitive, less experienced, less talented, more fun XC oriented) there are
many of the aircraft it beat then, that are easier to live with. I even got
beaten by a Phoebus IIb in the last regionals. Bottom line - you have to be a
bit better to extract the most from the racing oriented design, but it does have
a little more to give. If you are able to extract that last 1% and the
compromises required to get it don't phase you then you know which is the "best"
design.

Flying against some other (newer) Std Cirri has shown wide variances, some are
worse, some are so much better as to make one wonder if this is the same design.

Off the point I suppose. Ben and others' view is that the Discus 2a is the best
design available for Standard Class racing. Given that this has to be at least
partially a subjective view, one can't really differ. If you vary the metric to
include any subset of
the best finish, or
longevity, or
ergonomics or
value for money or
safety or
comfort or
manufacturer support

or any other thing that is relevant to your decision then you can make a
meaningful comparison.

On 25 Oct 2006 14:27:33 GMT, Ben Flewett
wrote:

It depends what you want the glider for...
Plus the type of weather in which you're flying most of the time.

ASW28 – Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely
does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8
(including high speed range). In fact, I would rate
it’s performance as surprisingly poor in comparison
to the D2 and LS8. However, it’s VERY crashworthy
which is excellent.

If you fly your glider in weak lift conditions most of the time, the
picture will be a complete different one.
Additional advantages of the ASW28 are better visibility from the
cockpit and a much better overall finish than the D2 and LS8.

BTW, there are only few ASW28 for sale, while you can fill oceans with
second hand LS8 and D2.
If you´re looking for a ASW28, look have a look at:
http://home.planet.nl/~holsw007/asw28/
;-)

Why has nobody included in any comparisons the Diana 2, Lak 17 and 19,
SZD-56-2, and the 304CZ (or any other Eastern European products of
comparable performance I might have missed) - maybe about 10k-20k
cheaper than the German sailplanes so far discussed in this thread?

Chris N. (Vested interest - Lak 17 owner)

Why has nobody included in any comparisons the Diana 2, Lak 17 and 19,
SZD-56-2, and the 304CZ ...

Because the discussion was originally about a few specific 15M standard
class ships, and has mostly stayed on topic. A broader comparison of
gliders would need its own news group!

~ted/2NO (former 304CZ owner)