First TSO-C199 "TABS" device

TSO-C166 *is* TABS.

Some of the rest of this stuff has been discussed on r.a.s. before.

On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 6:28:26 AM UTC-8, Renny wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 6:56:54 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 12:56:16 PM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
http://www.trig-avionics.com/new-tn7...at-flyer-live/

This should be available Q1 2017 - it's already popping up on aircraftSpruce & the like, at a sub- $400 price. Quite interesting for those of us with Trig transponders.

In the US, all airspace is "outside of designated ADS-B out airspace" for gliders. Or motorgliders I presume.

What are the consequences of having a Trig 21 vs 22, in both the TABS regulations and pure functionality? I understand that a Trig 21 may not meet TABS regulations, if there ever comes to be some. But will it actually function, if wired to the Trig TN72 source?

I had inquired directly with Trig on the potential use of the TT21 and the TN72 and this was their response in a message back to me on Dec 7th...

"Thank you for your interest in our TN72 GPS receiver.

The TN72 is compatible with your TT21 transponder and is an ideal choice for your glider.
TABS exists to allow exempt aircraft like yours to participate in ADS-B.
Your TT21 transponder exceeds the technical requirements of TABS and so does not require upgrading.

The TN72 will be shipping in early 2017 and will be available through all Trig dealers."

Renny, thanks. That makes uncommon sense for the rule makers. What happens on a Flarm display that sees both a Flarm and an ADS-B return from a glider? Is Flarm capable of disambiguating the result?

On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 10:50:13 AM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
TSO-C166 *is* TABS.

Some of the rest of this stuff has been discussed on r.a.s. before.

What hasn't been discussed on ras before? It is January.

And the TN72 is new, $400 and TSO'd source for ADSB-out.
They were tricky, flipping the digits upside down.

TSO-C199 != TSO-C166

On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 5:15:53 PM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 10:50:13 AM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
TSO-C166 *is* TABS.

Some of the rest of this stuff has been discussed on r.a.s. before.

What hasn't been discussed on ras before? It is January.

And the TN72 is new, $400 and TSO'd source for ADSB-out.
They were tricky, flipping the digits upside down.

TSO-C199 != TSO-C166

Oops my bad in flipping the 6 and 9. TSO-C166 is UAT, not relevant to TABS TSO-C199.

The TN72 has been discussed on r.a.s in detail before. See https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...ng/Q8p-zVz7DL8. The actual availability and low price is great news.

It's confusing to say this is a "certified" device, that makes some people incorrectly think it's suitable for use for ADS-B Out to meet 2020 carriage mandates or can be installed in a certified glider today (hopefully that is coming... but there is currently no way to actually do that AFAIK... hopefully something he FAA and manufactures are working on creating an STC for and/or streamlining field approval for).

The price is great news, and anybody interested in ADS-B Out who has an experimental glider and a Trig TT-21 or TT-22 may want to get a TN72 installed before the flying season. better visibility to GA aircraft equipping with ADS-B In and longer-range (than PowerFLARM-PowerFLARM) visibility to other gliders with PowerFLARM.

On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 9:12:19 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 6:28:26 AM UTC-8, Renny wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 6:56:54 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 12:56:16 PM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
http://www.trig-avionics.com/new-tn7...at-flyer-live/

This should be available Q1 2017 - it's already popping up on aircraftSpruce & the like, at a sub- $400 price. Quite interesting for those of us with Trig transponders.

In the US, all airspace is "outside of designated ADS-B out airspace" for gliders. Or motorgliders I presume.

What are the consequences of having a Trig 21 vs 22, in both the TABS regulations and pure functionality? I understand that a Trig 21 may not meet TABS regulations, if there ever comes to be some. But will it actually function, if wired to the Trig TN72 source?

I had inquired directly with Trig on the potential use of the TT21 and the TN72 and this was their response in a message back to me on Dec 7th...

"Thank you for your interest in our TN72 GPS receiver.

The TN72 is compatible with your TT21 transponder and is an ideal choice for your glider.
TABS exists to allow exempt aircraft like yours to participate in ADS-B..
Your TT21 transponder exceeds the technical requirements of TABS and so does not require upgrading.

The TN72 will be shipping in early 2017 and will be available through all Trig dealers."

Renny, thanks. That makes uncommon sense for the rule makers. What happens on a Flarm display that sees both a Flarm and an ADS-B return from a glider? Is Flarm capable of disambiguating the result?

PowerFLARM knows to de-duplicate those targets... if you have properly set up the PowerFLARM to use the ICAO address of your glider, that way the FLARM and ADS-B Out signals will have the same ICAO aircraft address and a receiving PowerFLARM device knows its the same aircraft. That's already used today to suppress Mode-S PCAS alerts for a target glider with Mode-S and PowerFLARM. And that's why PowerFLARM cannot suppress PCAS alerts as well for targets that have Mode C transponders (Mode C does not transmit an ICAO address).

Thanks for the link to the previous thread, I totally missed that one in early December. Funny a newsgroup search didn't bring it up, I looked for "TN72".

I hope FAA clarifies the situation w/r/to certificated gliders. The regs are silent about TSO-199 TABS, but I would hope it would be installable somehow.

The numbering is confusing. See the quick links of this page for an overview of regs, TSOs, etc

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/

TSO-166b is 1090es
TSO-199 is TABS
TSO-154c is UAT

On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 11:42:35 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 5:15:53 PM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 10:50:13 AM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
TSO-C166 *is* TABS.

Some of the rest of this stuff has been discussed on r.a.s. before.

What hasn't been discussed on ras before? It is January.

And the TN72 is new, $400 and TSO'd source for ADSB-out.
They were tricky, flipping the digits upside down.

TSO-C199 != TSO-C166

Oops my bad in flipping the 6 and 9. TSO-C166 is UAT, not relevant to TABS TSO-C199.

The TN72 has been discussed on r.a.s in detail before. See https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...ng/Q8p-zVz7DL8. The actual availability and low price is great news.

It's confusing to say this is a "certified" device, that makes some people incorrectly think it's suitable for use for ADS-B Out to meet 2020 carriage mandates or can be installed in a certified glider today (hopefully that is coming... but there is currently no way to actually do that AFAIK... hopefully something he FAA and manufactures are working on creating an STC for and/or streamlining field approval for).

The price is great news, and anybody interested in ADS-B Out who has an experimental glider and a Trig TT-21 or TT-22 may want to get a TN72 installed before the flying season. better visibility to GA aircraft equipping with ADS-B In and longer-range (than PowerFLARM-PowerFLARM) visibility to other gliders with PowerFLARM.

And to reply to myself...

in Addition to https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/

Current installation "instructions", including the clarifying March 2nd 2016 letter.
https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/installing/

Installation of ADS-B out for certificated aircraft of any sort isn't trivial.
You almost need a lawyer + A&P

Yes thanks for the TSO corrections. Don't know what went wrong here. Trying to post from a iPhone was not helping.

On 1/3/17 7:56 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 7:11:53 PM UTC-5, Sarah wrote:
Hi Walt,

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 5:31:05 PM UTC-6, WaltWX wrote:

It sounds like having TABS with your Trig in a glider will make you more visible to other aircraft who can track ADS-B out messages. The Mode S transponder already gives an equipped glider visibility to TCAS.

Right. It would make you visible on all those GA ADSB-in devices & ipads. That's something. It should also make your position visible to powerflarm users, but I have not verified that.

Now, in a Mode S equipped glider, I can request a clearance to enter Class A,B, C, or restricted airspace ... but in the future after 2020... will that clearance be denied UNLESS I have a TSO-C166B ADS-B out device?

That's how I read 91.225. I'd love to be corrected. If you really need to enter class A IFR, you'll need something much more expensive and harder to fit in a glider, a 1090es/TSO-C166 device. A TSO'd UAT is enough for class B or C. If you have an experimental glider non-TSO'd equipment is OK but you have to be careful.
https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/faq/#q4
I'm not an expert in these areas - see other posts on RAS or page Darryl Ramm.

(To be careful here, you strictly don't need a "TSO'd UAT" (or 1090ES
Out) for class B or C. An *experimental* aircraft just needs a "Meets
performance requirement of TSO..." device.).

I agree that is what the regulations say, and the intent around
TABS/TSO-C199 was aiming at collision avoidance and deliberately not at
ATC applications. If planning on obtaining IFR clearances into Class A
airspace I'd be planning on equipping a glider with a 2020 Complaint
1090ES Out system... but I'd also talk with your local FSDO.

I have some questions around this myself and am trying to find answers
and will post updates if I can.



I would hope that FAA or ATC would allow clearances to enter/transit Class A,B,C and restricted airspace WITH a TABS device.

One can always hope.


So, to me... this sounds like a very minimally beneficial upgrade to my Trig setup. I wonder... will TABS devices be visible to the satellite based ADS-B tracking service? If so, it might replace other satellite tracking devices like Spot and Delorme/Garmin InReach.

I don't know. I suspect they would be as visible as any other ADSB-out device, but I'm not certain.

The big advantage of having a TN72 coupled with a Trig transponder is that it will trigger the ADS-B ground stations to generate TIS-B and ADS-R broadcasts so that you can reliably see other aircraft if you are ADS-B IN equipped. Without an ADS-B OUT signal, you will not see any transponder equipped aircraft unless they are ADS-B OUT equipped, nor will you see ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft that are using a different frequency than your ADS-B receiver (not an issue if you have a dual frequency ADS-B receiver).


Since TABS/TSO-C199 and is all based on 1090ES Out I expect this will
just work. But you would want to ask (future) providers like Aireon, but
lots of things about their future service offerings including pricing,
data availability, etc are unclear to me. Their initial focus seems much
more airlines and trans-oceanic ATC applications.

It will be interesting to watch what is happening here over the next
decade or so but I do not expect Spot and Inreach devices to be replaced
any time soon by any ADS-B technology. The messaging capability with
InReach especially won't be replaced by ADS-B tracking.

Terrestrial crowd sourced tracking systems like Flightradar24 should
have no problems technically receiving TABS/TSO-C199 based devices as
long as they have local receiver coverage. Now whether those services
decide to publish tracks for all GA aircraft or gliders in the future
who knows.

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 9:06:12 AM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On 1/3/17 7:56 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 7:11:53 PM UTC-5, Sarah wrote:
Hi Walt,

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 5:31:05 PM UTC-6, WaltWX wrote:

It sounds like having TABS with your Trig in a glider will make you more visible to other aircraft who can track ADS-B out messages. The Mode S transponder already gives an equipped glider visibility to TCAS.

Right. It would make you visible on all those GA ADSB-in devices & ipads. That's something. It should also make your position visible to powerflarm users, but I have not verified that.

Now, in a Mode S equipped glider, I can request a clearance to enter Class A,B, C, or restricted airspace ... but in the future after 2020... will that clearance be denied UNLESS I have a TSO-C166B ADS-B out device?

That's how I read 91.225. I'd love to be corrected. If you really need to enter class A IFR, you'll need something much more expensive and harder to fit in a glider, a 1090es/TSO-C166 device. A TSO'd UAT is enough for class B or C. If you have an experimental glider non-TSO'd equipment is OK but you have to be careful.
https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/faq/#q4
I'm not an expert in these areas - see other posts on RAS or page Darryl Ramm.

(To be careful here, you strictly don't need a "TSO'd UAT" (or 1090ES
Out) for class B or C. An *experimental* aircraft just needs a "Meets
performance requirement of TSO..." device.).

I agree that is what the regulations say, and the intent around
TABS/TSO-C199 was aiming at collision avoidance and deliberately not at
ATC applications. If planning on obtaining IFR clearances into Class A
airspace I'd be planning on equipping a glider with a 2020 Complaint
1090ES Out system... but I'd also talk with your local FSDO.

I have some questions around this myself and am trying to find answers
and will post updates if I can.



I would hope that FAA or ATC would allow clearances to enter/transit Class A,B,C and restricted airspace WITH a TABS device.

One can always hope.


So, to me... this sounds like a very minimally beneficial upgrade to my Trig setup. I wonder... will TABS devices be visible to the satellite based ADS-B tracking service? If so, it might replace other satellite tracking devices like Spot and Delorme/Garmin InReach.

I don't know. I suspect they would be as visible as any other ADSB-out device, but I'm not certain.

The big advantage of having a TN72 coupled with a Trig transponder is that it will trigger the ADS-B ground stations to generate TIS-B and ADS-R broadcasts so that you can reliably see other aircraft if you are ADS-B IN equipped. Without an ADS-B OUT signal, you will not see any transponder equipped aircraft unless they are ADS-B OUT equipped, nor will you see ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft that are using a different frequency than your ADS-B receiver (not an issue if you have a dual frequency ADS-B receiver).


Since TABS/TSO-C199 and is all based on 1090ES Out I expect this will
just work. But you would want to ask (future) providers like Aireon, but
lots of things about their future service offerings including pricing,
data availability, etc are unclear to me. Their initial focus seems much
more airlines and trans-oceanic ATC applications.

It will be interesting to watch what is happening here over the next
decade or so but I do not expect Spot and Inreach devices to be replaced
any time soon by any ADS-B technology. The messaging capability with
InReach especially won't be replaced by ADS-B tracking.

Terrestrial crowd sourced tracking systems like Flightradar24 should
have no problems technically receiving TABS/TSO-C199 based devices as
long as they have local receiver coverage. Now whether those services
decide to publish tracks for all GA aircraft or gliders in the future
who knows.

Now for the rest of the story.

An amplified GPS antenna is need that meets ETSO C190
Trig TA70 Antenna $318 + Trig TN72 TABS GPS $359 = $677

Richard
www.craggyaero.com