High Performance Single Engine Choices

What does it matter? You need to decide what is important to you, speed,
range, payload or price. You are not going to get all of them. Your price
range is so wide that I assume that you haven't really figured out how much
you can spend and your performance requirements are so high that you will
never find anything approaching your budget and your performance.

If I were you, I would buy a the Used Aircraft Guide and start reading and
think about what you are really looking for.

Mike
MU-2


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...
Does anyone have, or know where I can find, an ordered list of high
performance single-engine (HPSE) aircraft according to their crusing
speed?

It would even be cooler to have (average) retail prices in the list.
If not, I will work on a project to put such a list together if others
are interested. What I would really like to see is which aircraft has
the best purchase-price-to-speed ratio. Someone has to have created
such a list somewhere?!

-Sami

O. Sami Saydjari wrote:
Folks, I am a first-time aircraft buyer. I have a general idea of the
type of aircraft I want, but am having trouble narrowing the list down.
Here is my general list of wants/needs:

1. Fast: 160 kts
2. Price range: $75K-$120K
3. Four Seater
4. Range: 800nm
5. Useful Payload (with full fuel); 650lbs
6. Retains its value well over time
7. Reliable: Engine TBO of 2000 hrs, good saftey record
8. Insurable for a pilot with only 350 hrs PIC experience (no HP/complex
time)


I have been thinking about a Piper Comanche 260 and a Piper Turbo Arrow
III/IV. I was considering a Mooney M20J, but they feel a little cramped
in the cabin to me. What I am looking for is the best dollars/kts
airplane (what we call price/performance in the computer biz) that meets
the above requirements. I would really appreciate suggestions and
advice.

-Sami

Mike, I am going through a used aircraft guide and, unfortunately, they
do not ordr their lists in a convenient way. While I agree that I have
to consider they trade-offs carefully and make some hard choices, it
seems to me that those choices begin with information about each factor
(like speed) considered seperately. So...that is why it matters.

-Sami

Mike Rapoport wrote:
What does it matter? You need to decide what is important to you, speed,
range, payload or price. You are not going to get all of them. Your price
range is so wide that I assume that you haven't really figured out how much
you can spend and your performance requirements are so high that you will
never find anything approaching your budget and your performance.

If I were you, I would buy a the Used Aircraft Guide and start reading and
think about what you are really looking for.

Mike
MU-2


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...

Does anyone have, or know where I can find, an ordered list of high
performance single-engine (HPSE) aircraft according to their crusing

speed?

It would even be cooler to have (average) retail prices in the list.
If not, I will work on a project to put such a list together if others
are interested. What I would really like to see is which aircraft has
the best purchase-price-to-speed ratio. Someone has to have created
such a list somewhere?!

-Sami

O. Sami Saydjari wrote:

Folks, I am a first-time aircraft buyer. I have a general idea of the
type of aircraft I want, but am having trouble narrowing the list down.
Here is my general list of wants/needs:

1. Fast: 160 kts
2. Price range: $75K-$120K
3. Four Seater
4. Range: 800nm
5. Useful Payload (with full fuel); 650lbs
6. Retains its value well over time
7. Reliable: Engine TBO of 2000 hrs, good saftey record
8. Insurable for a pilot with only 350 hrs PIC experience (no HP/complex
time)


I have been thinking about a Piper Comanche 260 and a Piper Turbo Arrow
III/IV. I was considering a Mooney M20J, but they feel a little cramped
in the cabin to me. What I am looking for is the best dollars/kts
airplane (what we call price/performance in the computer biz) that meets
the above requirements. I would really appreciate suggestions and

advice.

-Sami

If you are going to really make 800nm flights then there will only be a
handful of candidates (if any) that meet your other requirements and none of
them will be close to your budget. In fact, I'm pretty sure that there
isn't a single airplane that can meet your stated requirements at any price.

If you are really going to make 800nm flights then range is the only thing
that matters. It doesn't matter if one airplane is 30kts faster, if it has
to refuel it well get there second. Keep in mind that to fly 800nm legs you
will need over a 1000nm still air range. You might want to reconsider the
payload with full fuel requirement. It doesn't really matter what the full
fuel payload is. It matters what the payload is with enough fuel to make
the flight. It is unlikely that you will ever fly four people 800nm in a
single since it would be difficult to find three others who are willing to
spend 5hrs in a little airplane. Engine TBO is a just one part of operating
cost, it is silly to insist on some arbitrary number like 2000hrs. The real
issue is how much per hour the engine will cost over its lifetime.

I would look at what airplanes are within your budget.. Not just the
aquisition budget but the flying budget too. Can you spend $20k/yr on
flying? $30K? The worst airplane to own is one that is too expensive for
you to fly regardless of its other virtues. Budget issues will narrow down
the choices considerably. Then consider insurance if you feel you need
insurance. Then how many people will realistically be in the airplane and
how large are they. THEN you can consder the perfornace tradeoffs.

Mike
MU-2



"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...
Mike, I am going through a used aircraft guide and, unfortunately, they
do not ordr their lists in a convenient way. While I agree that I have
to consider they trade-offs carefully and make some hard choices, it
seems to me that those choices begin with information about each factor
(like speed) considered seperately. So...that is why it matters.

-Sami

Mike Rapoport wrote:
What does it matter? You need to decide what is important to you,
speed,
range, payload or price. You are not going to get all of them. Your
price
range is so wide that I assume that you haven't really figured out how
much
you can spend and your performance requirements are so high that you
will
never find anything approaching your budget and your performance.

If I were you, I would buy a the Used Aircraft Guide and start reading
and
think about what you are really looking for.

Mike
MU-2


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...

Does anyone have, or know where I can find, an ordered list of high
performance single-engine (HPSE) aircraft according to their crusing

speed?

It would even be cooler to have (average) retail prices in the list.
If not, I will work on a project to put such a list together if others
are interested. What I would really like to see is which aircraft has
the best purchase-price-to-speed ratio. Someone has to have created
such a list somewhere?!

-Sami

O. Sami Saydjari wrote:

Folks, I am a first-time aircraft buyer. I have a general idea of the
type of aircraft I want, but am having trouble narrowing the list down.
Here is my general list of wants/needs:

1. Fast: 160 kts
2. Price range: $75K-$120K
3. Four Seater
4. Range: 800nm
5. Useful Payload (with full fuel); 650lbs
6. Retains its value well over time
7. Reliable: Engine TBO of 2000 hrs, good saftey record
8. Insurable for a pilot with only 350 hrs PIC experience (no
HP/complex
time)


I have been thinking about a Piper Comanche 260 and a Piper Turbo Arrow
III/IV. I was considering a Mooney M20J, but they feel a little
cramped
in the cabin to me. What I am looking for is the best dollars/kts
airplane (what we call price/performance in the computer biz) that
meets
the above requirements. I would really appreciate suggestions and

advice.

-Sami

Mike,

Actually, my typical flight will be about 660nm...so I need that
distance (plus 45 mins of reserve).

Still, it would be good to have a sorted list of complex planes based on
range. You are right...that is the key factor to consider first.
What I would like to know is that once I factor this in, which aircraft
make the short list. My used aircraft book does not list range in the
spec sheet. it lists fuel capacity, but it does not list cruise burn
rates, so it is hard to figure these out. I am just trying to tap into
the expereince of this forum to either make some suggestions, or point
me at sources that has the information I seek.

-sami

Mike Rapoport wrote:
If you are going to really make 800nm flights then there will only be a
handful of candidates (if any) that meet your other requirements and none of
them will be close to your budget. In fact, I'm pretty sure that there
isn't a single airplane that can meet your stated requirements at any price.

If you are really going to make 800nm flights then range is the only thing
that matters. It doesn't matter if one airplane is 30kts faster, if it has
to refuel it well get there second. Keep in mind that to fly 800nm legs you
will need over a 1000nm still air range. You might want to reconsider the
payload with full fuel requirement. It doesn't really matter what the full
fuel payload is. It matters what the payload is with enough fuel to make
the flight. It is unlikely that you will ever fly four people 800nm in a
single since it would be difficult to find three others who are willing to
spend 5hrs in a little airplane. Engine TBO is a just one part of operating
cost, it is silly to insist on some arbitrary number like 2000hrs. The real
issue is how much per hour the engine will cost over its lifetime.

I would look at what airplanes are within your budget.. Not just the
aquisition budget but the flying budget too. Can you spend $20k/yr on
flying? $30K? The worst airplane to own is one that is too expensive for
you to fly regardless of its other virtues. Budget issues will narrow down
the choices considerably. Then consider insurance if you feel you need
insurance. Then how many people will realistically be in the airplane and
how large are they. THEN you can consder the perfornace tradeoffs.

Mike
MU-2



"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...

Mike, I am going through a used aircraft guide and, unfortunately, they
do not ordr their lists in a convenient way. While I agree that I have
to consider they trade-offs carefully and make some hard choices, it
seems to me that those choices begin with information about each factor
(like speed) considered seperately. So...that is why it matters.

-Sami

Mike Rapoport wrote:

What does it matter? You need to decide what is important to you,

speed,

range, payload or price. You are not going to get all of them. Your

price

range is so wide that I assume that you haven't really figured out how

much

you can spend and your performance requirements are so high that you

will

never find anything approaching your budget and your performance.

If I were you, I would buy a the Used Aircraft Guide and start reading

and

think about what you are really looking for.

Mike
MU-2


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...


Does anyone have, or know where I can find, an ordered list of high
performance single-engine (HPSE) aircraft according to their crusing

speed?


It would even be cooler to have (average) retail prices in the list.
If not, I will work on a project to put such a list together if others
are interested. What I would really like to see is which aircraft has
the best purchase-price-to-speed ratio. Someone has to have created
such a list somewhere?!

-Sami

O. Sami Saydjari wrote:


Folks, I am a first-time aircraft buyer. I have a general idea of the
type of aircraft I want, but am having trouble narrowing the list down.
Here is my general list of wants/needs:

1. Fast: 160 kts
2. Price range: $75K-$120K
3. Four Seater
4. Range: 800nm
5. Useful Payload (with full fuel); 650lbs
6. Retains its value well over time
7. Reliable: Engine TBO of 2000 hrs, good saftey record
8. Insurable for a pilot with only 350 hrs PIC experience (no

HP/complex

time)


I have been thinking about a Piper Comanche 260 and a Piper Turbo Arrow
III/IV. I was considering a Mooney M20J, but they feel a little

cramped

in the cabin to me. What I am looking for is the best dollars/kts
airplane (what we call price/performance in the computer biz) that

meets

the above requirements. I would really appreciate suggestions and

advice.


-Sami

Try: http://www.risingup.com/planespecs/

I don't know what "range" figure they are using (range with IFR reserves,
VFR reserves or dry tanks) but it is a place to start.

Mike
MU-2


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...
Mike,

Actually, my typical flight will be about 660nm...so I need that
distance (plus 45 mins of reserve).

Still, it would be good to have a sorted list of complex planes based on
range. You are right...that is the key factor to consider first.
What I would like to know is that once I factor this in, which aircraft
make the short list. My used aircraft book does not list range in the
spec sheet. it lists fuel capacity, but it does not list cruise burn
rates, so it is hard to figure these out. I am just trying to tap into
the expereince of this forum to either make some suggestions, or point
me at sources that has the information I seek.

-sami

Mike Rapoport wrote:
If you are going to really make 800nm flights then there will only be a
handful of candidates (if any) that meet your other requirements and
none of
them will be close to your budget. In fact, I'm pretty sure that there
isn't a single airplane that can meet your stated requirements at any
price.

If you are really going to make 800nm flights then range is the only
thing
that matters. It doesn't matter if one airplane is 30kts faster, if it
has
to refuel it well get there second. Keep in mind that to fly 800nm legs
you
will need over a 1000nm still air range. You might want to reconsider
the
payload with full fuel requirement. It doesn't really matter what the
full
fuel payload is. It matters what the payload is with enough fuel to
make
the flight. It is unlikely that you will ever fly four people 800nm in
a
single since it would be difficult to find three others who are willing
to
spend 5hrs in a little airplane. Engine TBO is a just one part of
operating
cost, it is silly to insist on some arbitrary number like 2000hrs. The
real
issue is how much per hour the engine will cost over its lifetime.

I would look at what airplanes are within your budget.. Not just the
aquisition budget but the flying budget too. Can you spend $20k/yr on
flying? $30K? The worst airplane to own is one that is too expensive
for
you to fly regardless of its other virtues. Budget issues will narrow
down
the choices considerably. Then consider insurance if you feel you need
insurance. Then how many people will realistically be in the airplane
and
how large are they. THEN you can consder the perfornace tradeoffs.

Mike
MU-2



"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...

Mike, I am going through a used aircraft guide and, unfortunately, they
do not ordr their lists in a convenient way. While I agree that I have
to consider they trade-offs carefully and make some hard choices, it
seems to me that those choices begin with information about each factor
(like speed) considered seperately. So...that is why it matters.

-Sami

Mike Rapoport wrote:

What does it matter? You need to decide what is important to you,

speed,

range, payload or price. You are not going to get all of them. Your

price

range is so wide that I assume that you haven't really figured out how

much

you can spend and your performance requirements are so high that you

will

never find anything approaching your budget and your performance.

If I were you, I would buy a the Used Aircraft Guide and start reading

and

think about what you are really looking for.

Mike
MU-2


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...


Does anyone have, or know where I can find, an ordered list of high
performance single-engine (HPSE) aircraft according to their crusing

speed?


It would even be cooler to have (average) retail prices in the list.
If not, I will work on a project to put such a list together if others
are interested. What I would really like to see is which aircraft has
the best purchase-price-to-speed ratio. Someone has to have created
such a list somewhere?!

-Sami

O. Sami Saydjari wrote:


Folks, I am a first-time aircraft buyer. I have a general idea of
the
type of aircraft I want, but am having trouble narrowing the list
down.
Here is my general list of wants/needs:

1. Fast: 160 kts
2. Price range: $75K-$120K
3. Four Seater
4. Range: 800nm
5. Useful Payload (with full fuel); 650lbs
6. Retains its value well over time
7. Reliable: Engine TBO of 2000 hrs, good saftey record
8. Insurable for a pilot with only 350 hrs PIC experience (no

HP/complex

time)


I have been thinking about a Piper Comanche 260 and a Piper Turbo
Arrow
III/IV. I was considering a Mooney M20J, but they feel a little

cramped

in the cabin to me. What I am looking for is the best dollars/kts
airplane (what we call price/performance in the computer biz) that

meets

the above requirements. I would really appreciate suggestions and

advice.


-Sami

O.,

Still, it would be good to have a sorted list of complex planes based on
range.


At what load? That's key to figure in. Do you need the full range of 800 nm
with four people? Do you need it with just yourself onboard?

FWIW, Aviation Consumer tends to have the info you need in their used
aircraft reviews.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 04:44:21 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:

Try: http://www.risingup.com/planespecs/

I don't know what "range" figure they are using (range with IFR reserves,
VFR reserves or dry tanks) but it is a place to start.

I think Mike did a great job of listing the qualifications.

They have, at least for the Beech Deb and F33 only "basic" fuel and
much of that is incorrect. OTOH there were so many combinations
listed, but not used it does get confusing. They listed 50 gallons
as the capacity, but very few ever left the factory configured that
way. The early ones had two 25 mains and two 10 aux tanks. Early on
they went to 80 gallons. (You only know when you check out the
individual airplane)

Mine, from the factory has the 4 tank arrangement for 70 gallons @ 14
per hour or 5.0 hours with no reserve of 800 miles.

I carry an extra 15 in each tip for a bit over two more hours which
is roughly 1130 miles. Whack an hour off for reserve plus change and
it's basically an 800 mile plane with a useful load of 580# with full
gas. Either some one stays home or you leave some gas behind.
4 FAA standard 170# adults = 680#

With Joyce and I, it works out just fine and we can take along almost
everything except the kitchen sink. We even get two full size
bicycles in back.

No matter how you look at it the only way a Bo would go the distance
is with tip tanks and the budget doesn't go that high. And don't
forget to go with "useable fuel" and not how much the plane will
carry.

I think he needs to add about 30 to 40 thousand (if not 60,000) to the
price and figure about $20,000 a year.

But ... I can't think of a single plane that would fit the bill.
Going to 6 seats would, except the insurance companies might get fussy
plus the price would be even higher.

What about an older 210? Course the price for maintaining an older
retract can get kinda steep too.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers


Mike
MU-2


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...
Mike,

Actually, my typical flight will be about 660nm...so I need that
distance (plus 45 mins of reserve).

Still, it would be good to have a sorted list of complex planes based on
range. You are right...that is the key factor to consider first.
What I would like to know is that once I factor this in, which aircraft
make the short list. My used aircraft book does not list range in the
spec sheet. it lists fuel capacity, but it does not list cruise burn
rates, so it is hard to figure these out. I am just trying to tap into
the expereince of this forum to either make some suggestions, or point
me at sources that has the information I seek.

-sami

Mike Rapoport wrote:
If you are going to really make 800nm flights then there will only be a
handful of candidates (if any) that meet your other requirements and
none of
them will be close to your budget. In fact, I'm pretty sure that there
isn't a single airplane that can meet your stated requirements at any
price.

If you are really going to make 800nm flights then range is the only
thing
that matters. It doesn't matter if one airplane is 30kts faster, if it
has
to refuel it well get there second. Keep in mind that to fly 800nm legs
you
will need over a 1000nm still air range. You might want to reconsider
the
payload with full fuel requirement. It doesn't really matter what the
full
fuel payload is. It matters what the payload is with enough fuel to
make
the flight. It is unlikely that you will ever fly four people 800nm in
a
single since it would be difficult to find three others who are willing
to
spend 5hrs in a little airplane. Engine TBO is a just one part of
operating
cost, it is silly to insist on some arbitrary number like 2000hrs. The
real
issue is how much per hour the engine will cost over its lifetime.

I would look at what airplanes are within your budget.. Not just the
aquisition budget but the flying budget too. Can you spend $20k/yr on
flying? $30K? The worst airplane to own is one that is too expensive
for
you to fly regardless of its other virtues. Budget issues will narrow
down
the choices considerably. Then consider insurance if you feel you need
insurance. Then how many people will realistically be in the airplane
and
how large are they. THEN you can consder the perfornace tradeoffs.

Mike
MU-2



"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...

Mike, I am going through a used aircraft guide and, unfortunately, they
do not ordr their lists in a convenient way. While I agree that I have
to consider they trade-offs carefully and make some hard choices, it
seems to me that those choices begin with information about each factor
(like speed) considered seperately. So...that is why it matters.

-Sami

Mike Rapoport wrote:

What does it matter? You need to decide what is important to you,

speed,

range, payload or price. You are not going to get all of them. Your

price

range is so wide that I assume that you haven't really figured out how

much

you can spend and your performance requirements are so high that you

will

never find anything approaching your budget and your performance.

If I were you, I would buy a the Used Aircraft Guide and start reading

and

think about what you are really looking for.

Mike
MU-2


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...


Does anyone have, or know where I can find, an ordered list of high
performance single-engine (HPSE) aircraft according to their crusing

speed?


It would even be cooler to have (average) retail prices in the list.
If not, I will work on a project to put such a list together if others
are interested. What I would really like to see is which aircraft has
the best purchase-price-to-speed ratio. Someone has to have created
such a list somewhere?!

-Sami

O. Sami Saydjari wrote:


Folks, I am a first-time aircraft buyer. I have a general idea of
the
type of aircraft I want, but am having trouble narrowing the list
down.
Here is my general list of wants/needs:

1. Fast: 160 kts
2. Price range: $75K-$120K
3. Four Seater
4. Range: 800nm
5. Useful Payload (with full fuel); 650lbs
6. Retains its value well over time
7. Reliable: Engine TBO of 2000 hrs, good saftey record
8. Insurable for a pilot with only 350 hrs PIC experience (no

HP/complex

time)


I have been thinking about a Piper Comanche 260 and a Piper Turbo
Arrow
III/IV. I was considering a Mooney M20J, but they feel a little

cramped

in the cabin to me. What I am looking for is the best dollars/kts
airplane (what we call price/performance in the computer biz) that

meets

the above requirements. I would really appreciate suggestions and

advice.


-Sami

O. Sami Saydjari wrote:

: make the short list. My used aircraft book does not list range in the
: spec sheet. it lists fuel capacity, but it does not list cruise burn
: rates, so it is hard to figure these out. I am just trying to tap into

You can estimate cruise fuel burn for a piston engine airplane by using
Fuel Burn (G.P.H.) = Engine HP / 18

This will get you an answer for 75% power, leaned to ROP operations, within
1 GPH or so.

Ovation2 = 280 HP, becomes 15.5 GPH (actual is about 15 GPH)
Piper Archer = 180 HP, becomes 10 GPH (actual is about 9.5 GPH)
Piper Navajo = 620 HP, becomes 34.5 GPH (actual is about 36 GPH)
Cessna 150 = 100 HP, becomes 5.5 GPH (actual is about 5 GPH)
Mooney 231 = 210 HP, becomes 11.6 GPH (actual is about 11 GPH)

Hope this helps,
--
Aaron Coolidge (N9376J)

I expect to make my typical trip solo, so load will be light. Thanks
for the tip toward Consumer Aviation. -Sami

Thomas Borchert wrote:
O.,


Still, it would be good to have a sorted list of complex planes based on
range.



At what load? That's key to figure in. Do you need the full range of 800 nm
with four people? Do you need it with just yourself onboard?

FWIW, Aviation Consumer tends to have the info you need in their used
aircraft reviews.

The Turbo Arrow III (PA-28R-201T) has a Turboplus intercooler. the
following quote has been passed along to me as being in the TurboPlus
owners manual:

"The results of the FAA Certification
flight, flown by FAA pilots on September 12, 1983 are as follows:
Take off wt. Max. gross weight
Climb speed 97 kts. IAS (best rate)
OAT 25 degrees above standard
Power during climb
to 16,000 feet 200 H.P
Rate of climb 900 FPM (avg.)
Fuel flow Full rich
Highest oil temp 201 F (240 F max)
Highest CHT 417 F (460 F max)
TAS 180 kts. (30" @ 2500 RPM)"

(a) This seems pretty extraordinary. Does anyone here have a Turbo
Arrow III configured with a Turboplus intercooler? Do they actually
experience these sorts of numbers?

(b) Are the results of "FAA Certification flights" publically accessible
somewhere so I can independently confirm this?

-Sami

Roger Halstead wrote:
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 04:44:21 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:


Try: http://www.risingup.com/planespecs/

I don't know what "range" figure they are using (range with IFR reserves,
VFR reserves or dry tanks) but it is a place to start.


I think Mike did a great job of listing the qualifications.

They have, at least for the Beech Deb and F33 only "basic" fuel and
much of that is incorrect. OTOH there were so many combinations
listed, but not used it does get confusing. They listed 50 gallons
as the capacity, but very few ever left the factory configured that
way. The early ones had two 25 mains and two 10 aux tanks. Early on
they went to 80 gallons. (You only know when you check out the
individual airplane)

Mine, from the factory has the 4 tank arrangement for 70 gallons @ 14
per hour or 5.0 hours with no reserve of 800 miles.

I carry an extra 15 in each tip for a bit over two more hours which
is roughly 1130 miles. Whack an hour off for reserve plus change and
it's basically an 800 mile plane with a useful load of 580# with full
gas. Either some one stays home or you leave some gas behind.
4 FAA standard 170# adults = 680#

With Joyce and I, it works out just fine and we can take along almost
everything except the kitchen sink. We even get two full size
bicycles in back.

No matter how you look at it the only way a Bo would go the distance
is with tip tanks and the budget doesn't go that high. And don't
forget to go with "useable fuel" and not how much the plane will
carry.

I think he needs to add about 30 to 40 thousand (if not 60,000) to the
price and figure about $20,000 a year.

But ... I can't think of a single plane that would fit the bill.
Going to 6 seats would, except the insurance companies might get fussy
plus the price would be even higher.

What about an older 210? Course the price for maintaining an older
retract can get kinda steep too.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers


Mike
MU-2


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...

Mike,

Actually, my typical flight will be about 660nm...so I need that
distance (plus 45 mins of reserve).

Still, it would be good to have a sorted list of complex planes based on
range. You are right...that is the key factor to consider first.
What I would like to know is that once I factor this in, which aircraft
make the short list. My used aircraft book does not list range in the
spec sheet. it lists fuel capacity, but it does not list cruise burn
rates, so it is hard to figure these out. I am just trying to tap into
the expereince of this forum to either make some suggestions, or point
me at sources that has the information I seek.

-sami

Mike Rapoport wrote:

If you are going to really make 800nm flights then there will only be a
handful of candidates (if any) that meet your other requirements and

none of

them will be close to your budget. In fact, I'm pretty sure that there
isn't a single airplane that can meet your stated requirements at any

price.

If you are really going to make 800nm flights then range is the only

thing

that matters. It doesn't matter if one airplane is 30kts faster, if it

has

to refuel it well get there second. Keep in mind that to fly 800nm legs

you

will need over a 1000nm still air range. You might want to reconsider

the

payload with full fuel requirement. It doesn't really matter what the

full

fuel payload is. It matters what the payload is with enough fuel to

make

the flight. It is unlikely that you will ever fly four people 800nm in

a

single since it would be difficult to find three others who are willing

to

spend 5hrs in a little airplane. Engine TBO is a just one part of

operating

cost, it is silly to insist on some arbitrary number like 2000hrs. The

real

issue is how much per hour the engine will cost over its lifetime.

I would look at what airplanes are within your budget.. Not just the
aquisition budget but the flying budget too. Can you spend $20k/yr on
flying? $30K? The worst airplane to own is one that is too expensive

for

you to fly regardless of its other virtues. Budget issues will narrow

down

the choices considerably. Then consider insurance if you feel you need
insurance. Then how many people will realistically be in the airplane

and

how large are they. THEN you can consder the perfornace tradeoffs.

Mike
MU-2



"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...


Mike, I am going through a used aircraft guide and, unfortunately, they
do not ordr their lists in a convenient way. While I agree that I have
to consider they trade-offs carefully and make some hard choices, it
seems to me that those choices begin with information about each factor
(like speed) considered seperately. So...that is why it matters.

-Sami

Mike Rapoport wrote:


What does it matter? You need to decide what is important to you,

speed,


range, payload or price. You are not going to get all of them. Your

price


range is so wide that I assume that you haven't really figured out how

much


you can spend and your performance requirements are so high that you

will


never find anything approaching your budget and your performance.

If I were you, I would buy a the Used Aircraft Guide and start reading

and


think about what you are really looking for.

Mike
MU-2


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...



Does anyone have, or know where I can find, an ordered list of high
performance single-engine (HPSE) aircraft according to their crusing

speed?



It would even be cooler to have (average) retail prices in the list.
If not, I will work on a project to put such a list together if others
are interested. What I would really like to see is which aircraft has
the best purchase-price-to-speed ratio. Someone has to have created
such a list somewhere?!

-Sami

O. Sami Saydjari wrote:



Folks, I am a first-time aircraft buyer. I have a general idea of

the

type of aircraft I want, but am having trouble narrowing the list

down.

Here is my general list of wants/needs:

1. Fast: 160 kts
2. Price range: $75K-$120K
3. Four Seater
4. Range: 800nm
5. Useful Payload (with full fuel); 650lbs
6. Retains its value well over time
7. Reliable: Engine TBO of 2000 hrs, good saftey record
8. Insurable for a pilot with only 350 hrs PIC experience (no

HP/complex


time)


I have been thinking about a Piper Comanche 260 and a Piper Turbo

Arrow

III/IV. I was considering a Mooney M20J, but they feel a little

cramped


in the cabin to me. What I am looking for is the best dollars/kts
airplane (what we call price/performance in the computer biz) that

meets


the above requirements. I would really appreciate suggestions and

advice.



-Sami