Winch Way Is Up !!

Just a few points.

The sort of incidents I described are very rare, which is why people are
sometimes not ready for them and may be caught. It would take many years
of operation with synthetic before one could be sure that it could never
behave as wire occasionally does.

It is not just energy stored in the wire due to elasticity, it is also the
energy due to its weight and speed. Synthetic may have less weight, but it
still has some.

Will winches be designed only for synthetic cable, and never used with wire?
Even if the intention is to use synthetic, the winch should be designed so
that wire can be used, and winch drivers should be trained for this.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Bob Johnson" wrote in message
...

Hi Bill --

After my limited experience with it, I can't help but think that
synthetic is going to be a lot safer and less nasty to work with during
breaks or whenever else it has to be dodged or handled. It's light as a
feather, soft as a baby's butt and stores absolutely no energy.

BJ


"W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.)." wrote:

A winch should never have any doors or windows open while actually
launching. The cab must be fully enclosed, doors and windows shut.
The windows must be of laminated glass or similar, with Lexan or
something similar on the inside surfaces. Any openings not glazed must
be protected with expanded metal sheet, weldmesh or similar.

If the cable breaks, and sooner or later it will, it can get inside the
winch through any opening with amazing ferocity.

One of the Long Mynd amateur winch drivers had the back window slightly
open. The cable broke, came in through the window and attacked his
clothing. He considered he had a very lucky escape, and has given up
driving the winch.

At another club one of the most experienced of all winch drivers parked
his car directly behind the winch and facing it, what he thought was a
safe distance away. This was at a busy club which has done many
thousands of winch launches every year for a very long time. The
cable broke and flew back, trashing the back of his car and round the
car to break one of the front door windows. I saw the car afterwards
and asked who had run into him.

This sort of thing does not happen very often so it takes people by
surprise. It is a completely avoidable risk and is just not worth
taking.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
...

snip

Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the
sliding doors open in summer.

Martin Gregorie

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 04:17:33 -0000, "W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\)."
wrote:

A winch should never have any doors or windows open while actually
launching.

......

"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
...

snip

Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the
sliding doors open in summer.


Couldn't agree more. I should have added "..doors open between
launches".

I always stay in the cable truck during launches as well, with it
parked 10 metres away and 45 degrees back and to the side. Bill, I
take your point about broken cable strikes on other vehicles. In your
experience is parking where I significantly better than behind the
winch? Is there an optimum place?

Language note: 'Shag vehicle' has an entirely different meaning in the
UK. Lets just say that towing things doesn't come into the frame and a
large back seat would be fitted.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:30:54 -0600, Bob Johnson
wrote:

Martin --

A very good description, thanks for providing it!

...../....

Thus we learned that the differential feature as we were using it would
have to be disabled and a couple of dog clutches would have to be
devised in order to turn our winch into a true double-drum unit.

The Supacat neutral and third brake is a useful design feature. With
the lever released and the engine running the gear-box is spun up, so
its oil is kept moving (good on a cold day) and the fluid clutch won't
overheat. The combined control makes it easy to rotate the dog a
little to help it engage.


--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

I am not an experienced winch driver, in fact I have not done it for years.
I was relating the lessons learned from others.

As to how far away from the winch you should stand or park when not in the
cab, I suggest you ask Bicester or Dick Stratton, he knows more than most
and is the depository of all knowledge relating to winching.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
...


On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 04:17:33 -0000, "W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\)."
wrote:

A winch should never have any doors or windows open while actually
launching.

.....

"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
...

snip

Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the
sliding doors open in summer.


Couldn't agree more. I should have added "..doors open between
launches".

I always stay in the cable truck during launches as well, with it
parked 10 metres away and 45 degrees back and to the side. Bill, I
take your point about broken cable strikes on other vehicles. In your
experience is parking where I significantly better than behind the
winch? Is there an optimum place?

Language note: 'Shag vehicle' has an entirely different meaning in the
UK. Lets just say that towing things doesn't come into the frame and a
large back seat would be fitted.

Martin Gregorie

I've been once watching as the cable retrieve car driver (sitting in the car
a couple of meters from the winch) during a cable break. The cable broke
about 100m in front of the winch, slammed back completely to the back of the
winch (the actual front end of the truck), broke the windshield & mirror,
came back to the initial "break position". Didn't take a second for the
whole thing to happen, the winch driver didn't see anything of it at all.

If a cable breaks, there is no safe position wherever that cable may reach
you if you're not sitting in a car, truck or cage.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Martin Gregorie" a écrit dans le message de
...
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 04:17:33 -0000, "W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\)."
wrote:

A winch should never have any doors or windows open while actually
launching.

.....

"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
...

snip

Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the
sliding doors open in summer.


Couldn't agree more. I should have added "..doors open between
launches".

I always stay in the cable truck during launches as well, with it
parked 10 metres away and 45 degrees back and to the side. Bill, I
take your point about broken cable strikes on other vehicles. In your
experience is parking where I significantly better than behind the
winch? Is there an optimum place?

Language note: 'Shag vehicle' has an entirely different meaning in the
UK. Lets just say that towing things doesn't come into the frame and a
large back seat would be fitted.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:33:58 +0100, "Bert Willing"
wrote:

I've been once watching as the cable retrieve car driver (sitting in the car
a couple of meters from the winch) during a cable break. The cable broke
about 100m in front of the winch, slammed back completely to the back of the
winch (the actual front end of the truck), broke the windshield & mirror,
came back to the initial "break position". Didn't take a second for the
whole thing to happen, the winch driver didn't see anything of it at all.

If a cable breaks, there is no safe position wherever that cable may reach
you if you're not sitting in a car, truck or cage.

I appreciate that, Bert. So far all the bad break descriptions have
described the cable lashing straight back over the winch. Has anybody
known it to go sideways and if so, how far to the side? I'm now
wondering if I should park the cable truck further away still or if my
usual position is reasonable.


--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

Wow, I've observed several hundred winch launches
and have been launched by winch about 100 times and
never realized how dangerous a cable break could be.
The cable breaks I did see were 'non-events' to either
the pilot or the winch operator.

I'm beginning to think the best position of the winch
operator is at some site way off to the side (where
he could see the 'arc', but not the lateral movements
) or in an underground, fortified bunker. In either
case, remote controls would be necessary.

I think the old winch (long since replaced) we had
protected the operator with only a screen fencing on
the side facing the rising glider. This fencing had
about 1 inch openings and the wire for it was maybe
1/8th inch in diameter (I'm trying to remember something
from 20 years ago.) All other sides of the operator's
position were open. The cable was multi-strand steel.

While there are drawbacks to any launch, I really did
like the winch!

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
LS-1d 'W8'


At 11:42 05 November 2003, Bert Willing wrote:
I've been once watching as the cable retrieve car driver
(sitting in the car
a couple of meters from the winch) during a cable break.
The cable broke
about 100m in front of the winch, slammed back completely
to the back of the
winch (the actual front end of the truck), broke the
windshield & mirror,
came back to the initial 'break position'. Didn't take
a second for the
whole thing to happen, the winch driver didn't see
anything of it at all.

If a cable breaks, there is no safe position wherever
that cable may reach
you if you're not sitting in a car, truck or cage.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 'TW'


'Martin Gregorie' a écrit dans le message de
.. .
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 04:17:33 -0000, 'W.J. \(Bill\)
Dean \(U.K.\).'
wrote:

A winch should never have any doors or windows open
while actually
launching.

.....

'Martin Gregorie' wrote in message
...



Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater
for winter and the
sliding doors open in summer.


Couldn't agree more. I should have added '..doors
open between
launches'.

I always stay in the cable truck during launches as
well, with it
parked 10 metres away and 45 degrees back and to the
side. Bill, I
take your point about broken cable strikes on other
vehicles. In your
experience is parking where I significantly better
than behind the
winch? Is there an optimum place?

Language note: 'Shag vehicle' has an entirely different
meaning in the
UK. Lets just say that towing things doesn't come
into the frame and a
large back seat would be fitted.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

Well, I've been doing well above a thousand winch launches from each side,
and it is I very safe operation if the pilot knows what he does, and if the
winch driver is well protected. Cable breaks are dangerous for the winch
driver only if the cable breaks near the winch and the broken end homes in
before he stops the drum, or if it's the right distance to just whip back
and forth.
I used to drive winches with either a metal grid in front of me, or a
bullet-proof window. I once having the end of the cable slightly scratching
my leg after a break, but so far most of the winches I've come across didn't
have lateral protection and I don't know of anyone having seen the cable
coming to get the winch driver around the forward protection at full speed
..-)

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Ray Lovinggood" a écrit dans le message
de ...
Wow, I've observed several hundred winch launches
and have been launched by winch about 100 times and
never realized how dangerous a cable break could be.
The cable breaks I did see were 'non-events' to either
the pilot or the winch operator.

I'm beginning to think the best position of the winch
operator is at some site way off to the side (where
he could see the 'arc', but not the lateral movements
) or in an underground, fortified bunker. In either
case, remote controls would be necessary.

I think the old winch (long since replaced) we had
protected the operator with only a screen fencing on
the side facing the rising glider. This fencing had
about 1 inch openings and the wire for it was maybe
1/8th inch in diameter (I'm trying to remember something
from 20 years ago.) All other sides of the operator's
position were open. The cable was multi-strand steel.

While there are drawbacks to any launch, I really did
like the winch!

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
LS-1d 'W8'


At 11:42 05 November 2003, Bert Willing wrote:
I've been once watching as the cable retrieve car driver
(sitting in the car
a couple of meters from the winch) during a cable break.
The cable broke
about 100m in front of the winch, slammed back completely
to the back of the
winch (the actual front end of the truck), broke the
windshield & mirror,
came back to the initial 'break position'. Didn't take
a second for the
whole thing to happen, the winch driver didn't see
anything of it at all.

If a cable breaks, there is no safe position wherever
that cable may reach
you if you're not sitting in a car, truck or cage.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 'TW'


'Martin Gregorie' a écrit dans le message de
.. .
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 04:17:33 -0000, 'W.J. \(Bill\)
Dean \(U.K.\).'
wrote:

A winch should never have any doors or windows open
while actually
launching.

.....

'Martin Gregorie' wrote in message
...



Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater
for winter and the
sliding doors open in summer.


Couldn't agree more. I should have added '..doors
open between
launches'.

I always stay in the cable truck during launches as
well, with it
parked 10 metres away and 45 degrees back and to the
side. Bill, I
take your point about broken cable strikes on other
vehicles. In your
experience is parking where I significantly better
than behind the
winch? Is there an optimum place?

Language note: 'Shag vehicle' has an entirely different
meaning in the
UK. Lets just say that towing things doesn't come
into the frame and a
large back seat would be fitted.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:33:58 +0100, "Bert Willing"
wrote:

I've been once watching as the cable retrieve car driver (sitting in the
car
a couple of meters from the winch) during a cable break. The cable broke
about 100m in front of the winch, slammed back completely to the back of
the
winch (the actual front end of the truck), broke the windshield & mirror,
came back to the initial "break position". Didn't take a second for the
whole thing to happen, the winch driver didn't see anything of it at all.

If a cable breaks, there is no safe position wherever that cable may
reach
you if you're not sitting in a car, truck or cage.

I appreciate that, Bert. So far all the bad break descriptions have
described the cable lashing straight back over the winch. Has anybody
known it to go sideways and if so, how far to the side? I'm now
wondering if I should park the cable truck further away still or if my
usual position is reasonable.

At Enstone several years ago, we were using re-engined ex-ATC winches. The
drums were beneath the driver and mesh plus lexan panels were in the floor
to allow the driver to see the dog-clutch engagements. These panels were
normally bolted down. During a wire break one day, some loops were thrown
on a drum. One of the panels, which for some reason was not bolted down
that day, was knocked up by the loops which then proceeded to shred the wire
and thrash the shins on the driver, who was wearing short pants that day.
It looked much worse than it actually turned out, but he carries some of the
embedded wire bits to this day.

I have had wire and/or tackle shoot past the winch a few times after a break
or if the chute tangled. Falling tackle after a downwind launch can land
about anywhere depending on the wind components.

Frank Whiteley

Martin Gregorie wrote:

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:33:58 +0100, "Bert Willing"
wrote:

I've been once watching as the cable retrieve car driver (sitting in the car
a couple of meters from the winch) during a cable break. The cable broke
about 100m in front of the winch, slammed back completely to the back of the
winch (the actual front end of the truck), broke the windshield & mirror,
came back to the initial "break position". Didn't take a second for the
whole thing to happen, the winch driver didn't see anything of it at all.

If a cable breaks, there is no safe position wherever that cable may reach
you if you're not sitting in a car, truck or cage.

I appreciate that, Bert. So far all the bad break descriptions have
described the cable lashing straight back over the winch. Has anybody
known it to go sideways and if so, how far to the side? I'm now
wondering if I should park the cable truck further away still or if my
usual position is reasonable.


As winch driver I usually have my car near the winch, especially when
it is on the far end of the runway. I park the car at 90 degrees from the
runway direction at about 20 m from the winch on the upwind side. I
never saw or heard of a breaking cable reaching this place. I hope that
I am not going to do the first experience of it.