Dream Panel

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 10:16:16 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 9:58:52 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 10:47:58 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
I'm not sure why you would you use a UAT-Out only GDL 82--which is invisible to PowerFLARM. Other PowerFLARM equipped gliders will see your PowerFLARM's FLARM signal, but you will not have the long-range benefits of having 1090ES Out for those gliders to see you via 1090ES. Why not just use a TT22 with ADS-B Out with a TN72 GPS source for SIL=3/2020 Compliance, assuming the glider will be experimental.

Another benefit (for folks who care about wave windows) is a TT22 with TN72 in an experimental glider will get you above 18,000' after 2020. Guaranteed. Without any reliance on wave window agreements actually waiving the full 2020 Compliant 1090ES Out requirement above 18,000'. But sure that's not an issue for many glider pilots.

VT-01 transponders can't do ADS-B Out in the USA, since they are not TSO-C166b/DO-260B compliant, the *B* matters. I'd be cautious of promises from Air Avionic for future support for that, I'm sure they'll get there eventually but as you know they've had challenges meeting some recent/past promises.

Schleicher will install most items though circuit breakers. But, historically at least, not ILEC engine controllers and fuel pumps on fuses.

As suggested already, I would discuss with Rex having him do the panel for you in the USA.

Since I think you might have mention Air Avionics ADS-B receivers or displays in the past, be careful of assuming Air Avionics systems will display all ADS-B targets in the USA. Their ADS-B receivers can't receive UAT, or combine it from other UAT-In sources (same issue as other FLARM serial protocol traffic displays), and their ADS-B/1090ES receivers have the same issues as PowerFLARM with lack of TIS-B and ADS-R receive capability. If you do ask them, ask very careful questions for what exactly they support with ADS-B systems in the USA. They really are very much European focused.



On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
Total Cost about $14,000 USD
ROY

Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout). And I would add the Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B. I would also use the Air Avionics altimeter (it's awesome!).

Schleicher has a thing about circuit breakers (?!).

Tom

Thanks for the response. I revisited the TN72 and found that Trig is now making two different versions of the TN72: the TN72 TABS GPS and the TN72 X GPS, the later providing SIL 3 and full ADS-B out compliance for non-certified aircraft (which my 31Mi will be, thank God!). It is unclear to me, however, whether these are actually two different products, or are configured to be one or the other upon installation (https://www.trig-avionics.com/produc...gps-receiver/).

Any other certified GPS is large and is a challenge to mount in our gliders. The GDL 82 could be mounted anywhere in the aircraft (within reason), so that made it attractive. The TN72 is small, and can definitely be mounted behind the instrument panel.

Tom

I think I found the answer to my own question: there is only one version of the TN72, configuration means the other components you have to have to meet full ADS-B Out compliance (this includes a certified GPS antenna). Here is an example of a fully compliant bundle which includes the TN72, TT22, antenna and control head:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...ickkey=3436497
This is a bargain as it is only $700 more than just the TN70 by itself. The only wart is finding a place for the antenna, but this is mandatory for any fully compliant ADS-B Out installation. Rex says I can put it in the baggage area.

Tom

It is a testament to the inanity and illogic of government regulations that this bundle meets the requirements for experimental gliders and light sport aircraft, but not for certified gliders.

On the other hand, just Thursday I talked to NorCal Approach while transiting the Reno south approach pattern. I asked them if they could see me on ADS-B. After a very long pause, the controller said he didn't know, the pilots knew a lot more about this than they did, and their briefing and training on the equipment they were using did not include an explanation of the difference, or whether they could even tell from the equipment.

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 2:19:09 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 10:16:16 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 9:58:52 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 10:47:58 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
I'm not sure why you would you use a UAT-Out only GDL 82--which is invisible to PowerFLARM. Other PowerFLARM equipped gliders will see your PowerFLARM's FLARM signal, but you will not have the long-range benefits of having 1090ES Out for those gliders to see you via 1090ES. Why not just use a TT22 with ADS-B Out with a TN72 GPS source for SIL=3/2020 Compliance, assuming the glider will be experimental.

Another benefit (for folks who care about wave windows) is a TT22 with TN72 in an experimental glider will get you above 18,000' after 2020. Guaranteed. Without any reliance on wave window agreements actually waiving the full 2020 Compliant 1090ES Out requirement above 18,000'. But sure that's not an issue for many glider pilots.

VT-01 transponders can't do ADS-B Out in the USA, since they are not TSO-C166b/DO-260B compliant, the *B* matters. I'd be cautious of promises from Air Avionic for future support for that, I'm sure they'll get there eventually but as you know they've had challenges meeting some recent/past promises.

Schleicher will install most items though circuit breakers. But, historically at least, not ILEC engine controllers and fuel pumps on fuses.

As suggested already, I would discuss with Rex having him do the panel for you in the USA.

Since I think you might have mention Air Avionics ADS-B receivers or displays in the past, be careful of assuming Air Avionics systems will display all ADS-B targets in the USA. Their ADS-B receivers can't receive UAT, or combine it from other UAT-In sources (same issue as other FLARM serial protocol traffic displays), and their ADS-B/1090ES receivers have the same issues as PowerFLARM with lack of TIS-B and ADS-R receive capability. If you do ask them, ask very careful questions for what exactly they support with ADS-B systems in the USA. They really are very much European focused.



On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
Total Cost about $14,000 USD
ROY

Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout). And I would add the Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B. I would also use the Air Avionics altimeter (it's awesome!).

Schleicher has a thing about circuit breakers (?!).

Tom

Thanks for the response. I revisited the TN72 and found that Trig is now making two different versions of the TN72: the TN72 TABS GPS and the TN72 X GPS, the later providing SIL 3 and full ADS-B out compliance for non-certified aircraft (which my 31Mi will be, thank God!). It is unclear to me, however, whether these are actually two different products, or are configured to be one or the other upon installation (https://www.trig-avionics.com/produc...gps-receiver/).

Any other certified GPS is large and is a challenge to mount in our gliders. The GDL 82 could be mounted anywhere in the aircraft (within reason), so that made it attractive. The TN72 is small, and can definitely be mounted behind the instrument panel.

Tom

I think I found the answer to my own question: there is only one version of the TN72, configuration means the other components you have to have to meet full ADS-B Out compliance (this includes a certified GPS antenna). Here is an example of a fully compliant bundle which includes the TN72, TT22, antenna and control head:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...ickkey=3436497
This is a bargain as it is only $700 more than just the TN70 by itself. The only wart is finding a place for the antenna, but this is mandatory for any fully compliant ADS-B Out installation. Rex says I can put it in the baggage area.

Tom

It is a testament to the inanity and illogic of government regulations that this bundle meets the requirements for experimental gliders and light sport aircraft, but not for certified gliders.

On the other hand, just Thursday I talked to NorCal Approach while transiting the Reno south approach pattern. I asked them if they could see me on ADS-B. After a very long pause, the controller said he didn't know, the pilots knew a lot more about this than they did, and their briefing and training on the equipment they were using did not include an explanation of the difference, or whether they could even tell from the equipment.

These are very complex integrated systems. I suspect you don't want controller displays cluttered up with information about what/how data is getting to them. Last time I checked, (earlier this year) with NORCAL TRACON folks their Fusion software is configured to shows SSR derived targets anytime the traffic is visible via SSR, when there is no SSR target it shows an ADS-B derived target if that data is available. I have no idea if/when that may change in future. If you have SIL=1 (aka TABS) the system will not display you via ADS-B to a controller in any situation.

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 9:58:52 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 10:47:58 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
I'm not sure why you would you use a UAT-Out only GDL 82--which is invisible to PowerFLARM. Other PowerFLARM equipped gliders will see your PowerFLARM's FLARM signal, but you will not have the long-range benefits of having 1090ES Out for those gliders to see you via 1090ES. Why not just use a TT22 with ADS-B Out with a TN72 GPS source for SIL=3/2020 Compliance, assuming the glider will be experimental.

Another benefit (for folks who care about wave windows) is a TT22 with TN72 in an experimental glider will get you above 18,000' after 2020. Guaranteed. Without any reliance on wave window agreements actually waiving the full 2020 Compliant 1090ES Out requirement above 18,000'. But sure that's not an issue for many glider pilots.

VT-01 transponders can't do ADS-B Out in the USA, since they are not TSO-C166b/DO-260B compliant, the *B* matters. I'd be cautious of promises from Air Avionic for future support for that, I'm sure they'll get there eventually but as you know they've had challenges meeting some recent/past promises.

Schleicher will install most items though circuit breakers. But, historically at least, not ILEC engine controllers and fuel pumps on fuses.

As suggested already, I would discuss with Rex having him do the panel for you in the USA.

Since I think you might have mention Air Avionics ADS-B receivers or displays in the past, be careful of assuming Air Avionics systems will display all ADS-B targets in the USA. Their ADS-B receivers can't receive UAT, or combine it from other UAT-In sources (same issue as other FLARM serial protocol traffic displays), and their ADS-B/1090ES receivers have the same issues as PowerFLARM with lack of TIS-B and ADS-R receive capability. If you do ask them, ask very careful questions for what exactly they support with ADS-B systems in the USA. They really are very much European focused.



On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
Total Cost about $14,000 USD
ROY

Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout). And I would add the Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B. I would also use the Air Avionics altimeter (it's awesome!).

Schleicher has a thing about circuit breakers (?!).

Tom

Thanks for the response. I revisited the TN72 and found that Trig is now making two different versions of the TN72: the TN72 TABS GPS and the TN72 X GPS, the later providing SIL 3 and full ADS-B out compliance for non-certified aircraft (which my 31Mi will be, thank God!). It is unclear to me, however, whether these are actually two different products, or are configured to be one or the other upon installation (https://www.trig-avionics.com/produc...gps-receiver/).

Any other certified GPS is large and is a challenge to mount in our gliders. The GDL 82 could be mounted anywhere in the aircraft (within reason), so that made it attractive. The TN72 is small, and can definitely be mounted behind the instrument panel.

Tom

Tom

AFAIK both of these TN72 "models" are the same actual device. I understand Trig did this packaging change to try to avoid confusion about use for TABS and 2020 Compliance in different aircraft with the same GPS Source. Trying to make it clearer that the TN72 can be used for TABS in some aircraft (e..g. mostly only really makes sense for gliders with their ADS-B out exemption), and can be used for full 2020 Compliant ADS-B out in (experimental and light-sports) others. I understand their likely frustration with the bureaucracy that creates this insanity but I disagree that repackaging the TN72 into two different models is the best way to help avoid confusion (it may create more). I tried to encourage them to just provide clearer information online and in documentation. But here we are. Anyhow for now at least, its best to order whatever TN72 version is appropriate and make sure all the documentation in the kit is correct for he intended use.

OTOH I really appreciate all that Trig did in getting USA compatible ADS-B Out going so early in their products. The FAA air survey King Airs etc. were flying with Trig ADS-B Out systems early on, so we know their stuff really works well, and Trig does provide good support for the glider community in the USA.

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 2:19:09 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 10:16:16 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 9:58:52 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 10:47:58 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
I'm not sure why you would you use a UAT-Out only GDL 82--which is invisible to PowerFLARM. Other PowerFLARM equipped gliders will see your PowerFLARM's FLARM signal, but you will not have the long-range benefits of having 1090ES Out for those gliders to see you via 1090ES. Why not just use a TT22 with ADS-B Out with a TN72 GPS source for SIL=3/2020 Compliance, assuming the glider will be experimental.

Another benefit (for folks who care about wave windows) is a TT22 with TN72 in an experimental glider will get you above 18,000' after 2020. Guaranteed. Without any reliance on wave window agreements actually waiving the full 2020 Compliant 1090ES Out requirement above 18,000'. But sure that's not an issue for many glider pilots.

VT-01 transponders can't do ADS-B Out in the USA, since they are not TSO-C166b/DO-260B compliant, the *B* matters. I'd be cautious of promises from Air Avionic for future support for that, I'm sure they'll get there eventually but as you know they've had challenges meeting some recent/past promises.

Schleicher will install most items though circuit breakers. But, historically at least, not ILEC engine controllers and fuel pumps on fuses.

As suggested already, I would discuss with Rex having him do the panel for you in the USA.

Since I think you might have mention Air Avionics ADS-B receivers or displays in the past, be careful of assuming Air Avionics systems will display all ADS-B targets in the USA. Their ADS-B receivers can't receive UAT, or combine it from other UAT-In sources (same issue as other FLARM serial protocol traffic displays), and their ADS-B/1090ES receivers have the same issues as PowerFLARM with lack of TIS-B and ADS-R receive capability. If you do ask them, ask very careful questions for what exactly they support with ADS-B systems in the USA. They really are very much European focused.



On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
Total Cost about $14,000 USD
ROY

Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout). And I would add the Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B. I would also use the Air Avionics altimeter (it's awesome!).

Schleicher has a thing about circuit breakers (?!).

Tom

Thanks for the response. I revisited the TN72 and found that Trig is now making two different versions of the TN72: the TN72 TABS GPS and the TN72 X GPS, the later providing SIL 3 and full ADS-B out compliance for non-certified aircraft (which my 31Mi will be, thank God!). It is unclear to me, however, whether these are actually two different products, or are configured to be one or the other upon installation (https://www.trig-avionics.com/produc...gps-receiver/).

Any other certified GPS is large and is a challenge to mount in our gliders. The GDL 82 could be mounted anywhere in the aircraft (within reason), so that made it attractive. The TN72 is small, and can definitely be mounted behind the instrument panel.

Tom

I think I found the answer to my own question: there is only one version of the TN72, configuration means the other components you have to have to meet full ADS-B Out compliance (this includes a certified GPS antenna). Here is an example of a fully compliant bundle which includes the TN72, TT22, antenna and control head:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...ickkey=3436497
This is a bargain as it is only $700 more than just the TN70 by itself. The only wart is finding a place for the antenna, but this is mandatory for any fully compliant ADS-B Out installation. Rex says I can put it in the baggage area.

Tom

It is a testament to the inanity and illogic of government regulations that this bundle meets the requirements for experimental gliders and light sport aircraft, but not for certified gliders.

On the other hand, just Thursday I talked to NorCal Approach while transiting the Reno south approach pattern. I asked them if they could see me on ADS-B. After a very long pause, the controller said he didn't know, the pilots knew a lot more about this than they did, and their briefing and training on the equipment they were using did not include an explanation of the difference, or whether they could even tell from the equipment.

I absolutely agree with you - this is what happens when bureaucrats run the show. The only difference between a certified 31Mi and an experimental 31Mi is a pile of paperwork. You can buy an experiment Garmin G5 for $1,200, or you can get a TSO'd G5 for $2,200, almost TWICE the cost for the same instrument. What do you get for your extra $1,000? A piece of paper that says it is TSO'd!

Trying to reason with bureaucrats is like dancing with elephants: you don't want to get stepped on!

Tom

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 3:11:00 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 9:58:52 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 10:47:58 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
I'm not sure why you would you use a UAT-Out only GDL 82--which is invisible to PowerFLARM. Other PowerFLARM equipped gliders will see your PowerFLARM's FLARM signal, but you will not have the long-range benefits of having 1090ES Out for those gliders to see you via 1090ES. Why not just use a TT22 with ADS-B Out with a TN72 GPS source for SIL=3/2020 Compliance, assuming the glider will be experimental.

Another benefit (for folks who care about wave windows) is a TT22 with TN72 in an experimental glider will get you above 18,000' after 2020. Guaranteed. Without any reliance on wave window agreements actually waiving the full 2020 Compliant 1090ES Out requirement above 18,000'. But sure that's not an issue for many glider pilots.

VT-01 transponders can't do ADS-B Out in the USA, since they are not TSO-C166b/DO-260B compliant, the *B* matters. I'd be cautious of promises from Air Avionic for future support for that, I'm sure they'll get there eventually but as you know they've had challenges meeting some recent/past promises.

Schleicher will install most items though circuit breakers. But, historically at least, not ILEC engine controllers and fuel pumps on fuses.

As suggested already, I would discuss with Rex having him do the panel for you in the USA.

Since I think you might have mention Air Avionics ADS-B receivers or displays in the past, be careful of assuming Air Avionics systems will display all ADS-B targets in the USA. Their ADS-B receivers can't receive UAT, or combine it from other UAT-In sources (same issue as other FLARM serial protocol traffic displays), and their ADS-B/1090ES receivers have the same issues as PowerFLARM with lack of TIS-B and ADS-R receive capability. If you do ask them, ask very careful questions for what exactly they support with ADS-B systems in the USA. They really are very much European focused.



On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
Total Cost about $14,000 USD
ROY

Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout). And I would add the Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B. I would also use the Air Avionics altimeter (it's awesome!).

Schleicher has a thing about circuit breakers (?!).

Tom

Thanks for the response. I revisited the TN72 and found that Trig is now making two different versions of the TN72: the TN72 TABS GPS and the TN72 X GPS, the later providing SIL 3 and full ADS-B out compliance for non-certified aircraft (which my 31Mi will be, thank God!). It is unclear to me, however, whether these are actually two different products, or are configured to be one or the other upon installation (https://www.trig-avionics.com/produc...gps-receiver/).

Any other certified GPS is large and is a challenge to mount in our gliders. The GDL 82 could be mounted anywhere in the aircraft (within reason), so that made it attractive. The TN72 is small, and can definitely be mounted behind the instrument panel.

Tom

Tom

AFAIK both of these TN72 "models" are the same actual device. I understand Trig did this packaging change to try to avoid confusion about use for TABS and 2020 Compliance in different aircraft with the same GPS Source. Trying to make it clearer that the TN72 can be used for TABS in some aircraft (e.g. mostly only really makes sense for gliders with their ADS-B out exemption), and can be used for full 2020 Compliant ADS-B out in (experimental and light-sports) others. I understand their likely frustration with the bureaucracy that creates this insanity but I disagree that repackaging the TN72 into two different models is the best way to help avoid confusion (it may create more). I tried to encourage them to just provide clearer information online and in documentation. But here we are. Anyhow for now at least, its best to order whatever TN72 version is appropriate and make sure all the documentation in the kit is correct for he intended use.

OTOH I really appreciate all that Trig did in getting USA compatible ADS-B Out going so early in their products. The FAA air survey King Airs etc. were flying with Trig ADS-B Out systems early on, so we know their stuff really works well, and Trig does provide good support for the glider community in the USA.

Trig is, and has been, a life-saver for the gliding and experimental aircraft groups, and I fully appreciate what they have done for us. I remember talking to the sales manager for the company that supplies Trig with the high-accuracy GPS chips used in the TN72 just before he left for England to meet with Trig a number of years ago. Wish I could remember the guy's and the company's name, but oh-well.

Anyhow, I have solved my ADS-B Out dilema.

Tom

On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:26 PM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
Circuit breakers (not fuses)
ROY

I don't have a comment on which instruments to purchase. I only want to agree with Roy on circuit breakers over fuses. Also I feel that you should not use small value breakers (or fuses) less than 4A or you will pay a price in lost volts.

I prefer 5A+ combo breaker/switches (i.e. Tyco W31) over plain breakers. Tyco's are bulky as compared to Klixon but the Tyco eliminates a separate switch and a additional failure point. I don't agree with using a plain breaker as a switch.

One other thing I like separate on/off switches for those avionics that don't have their own internal power off capability (I have two such devices - ClearNav and FLARM Core) to be able to reset a device or if you need to save dwindling power at the end of a long flight.

Best of luck.

John OHM Ω

Trig is, and has been, a life-saver for the gliding and experimental aircraft groups, and I fully appreciate what they have done for us. I remember talking to the sales manager for the company that supplies Trig with the high-accuracy GPS chips used in the TN72 just before he left for England to meet with Trig a number of years ago. Wish I could remember the guy's and the company's name, but oh-well.

Anyhow, I have solved my ADS-B Out dilema.

Tom


Trig is in Scotland, not England.

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 10:16:16 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 9:58:52 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 10:47:58 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
I'm not sure why you would you use a UAT-Out only GDL 82--which is invisible to PowerFLARM. Other PowerFLARM equipped gliders will see your PowerFLARM's FLARM signal, but you will not have the long-range benefits of having 1090ES Out for those gliders to see you via 1090ES. Why not just use a TT22 with ADS-B Out with a TN72 GPS source for SIL=3/2020 Compliance, assuming the glider will be experimental.

Another benefit (for folks who care about wave windows) is a TT22 with TN72 in an experimental glider will get you above 18,000' after 2020. Guaranteed. Without any reliance on wave window agreements actually waiving the full 2020 Compliant 1090ES Out requirement above 18,000'. But sure that's not an issue for many glider pilots.

VT-01 transponders can't do ADS-B Out in the USA, since they are not TSO-C166b/DO-260B compliant, the *B* matters. I'd be cautious of promises from Air Avionic for future support for that, I'm sure they'll get there eventually but as you know they've had challenges meeting some recent/past promises.

Schleicher will install most items though circuit breakers. But, historically at least, not ILEC engine controllers and fuel pumps on fuses.

As suggested already, I would discuss with Rex having him do the panel for you in the USA.

Since I think you might have mention Air Avionics ADS-B receivers or displays in the past, be careful of assuming Air Avionics systems will display all ADS-B targets in the USA. Their ADS-B receivers can't receive UAT, or combine it from other UAT-In sources (same issue as other FLARM serial protocol traffic displays), and their ADS-B/1090ES receivers have the same issues as PowerFLARM with lack of TIS-B and ADS-R receive capability. If you do ask them, ask very careful questions for what exactly they support with ADS-B systems in the USA. They really are very much European focused.



On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
Total Cost about $14,000 USD
ROY

Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout). And I would add the Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B. I would also use the Air Avionics altimeter (it's awesome!).

Schleicher has a thing about circuit breakers (?!).

Tom

Thanks for the response. I revisited the TN72 and found that Trig is now making two different versions of the TN72: the TN72 TABS GPS and the TN72 X GPS, the later providing SIL 3 and full ADS-B out compliance for non-certified aircraft (which my 31Mi will be, thank God!). It is unclear to me, however, whether these are actually two different products, or are configured to be one or the other upon installation (https://www.trig-avionics.com/produc...gps-receiver/).

Any other certified GPS is large and is a challenge to mount in our gliders. The GDL 82 could be mounted anywhere in the aircraft (within reason), so that made it attractive. The TN72 is small, and can definitely be mounted behind the instrument panel.

Tom

I think I found the answer to my own question: there is only one version of the TN72, configuration means the other components you have to have to meet full ADS-B Out compliance (this includes a certified GPS antenna). Here is an example of a fully compliant bundle which includes the TN72, TT22, antenna and control head:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...ickkey=3436497
This is a bargain as it is only $700 more than just the TN70 by itself. The only wart is finding a place for the antenna, but this is mandatory for any fully compliant ADS-B Out installation. Rex says I can put it in the baggage area.

Tom
Craggy Aero sells that Bundle for $2525.

Call to order

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 5:37:11 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 10:16:16 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 9:58:52 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 10:47:58 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
I'm not sure why you would you use a UAT-Out only GDL 82--which is invisible to PowerFLARM. Other PowerFLARM equipped gliders will see your PowerFLARM's FLARM signal, but you will not have the long-range benefits of having 1090ES Out for those gliders to see you via 1090ES. Why not just use a TT22 with ADS-B Out with a TN72 GPS source for SIL=3/2020 Compliance, assuming the glider will be experimental.

Another benefit (for folks who care about wave windows) is a TT22 with TN72 in an experimental glider will get you above 18,000' after 2020. Guaranteed. Without any reliance on wave window agreements actually waiving the full 2020 Compliant 1090ES Out requirement above 18,000'. But sure that's not an issue for many glider pilots.

VT-01 transponders can't do ADS-B Out in the USA, since they are not TSO-C166b/DO-260B compliant, the *B* matters. I'd be cautious of promises from Air Avionic for future support for that, I'm sure they'll get there eventually but as you know they've had challenges meeting some recent/past promises.

Schleicher will install most items though circuit breakers. But, historically at least, not ILEC engine controllers and fuel pumps on fuses.

As suggested already, I would discuss with Rex having him do the panel for you in the USA.

Since I think you might have mention Air Avionics ADS-B receivers or displays in the past, be careful of assuming Air Avionics systems will display all ADS-B targets in the USA. Their ADS-B receivers can't receive UAT, or combine it from other UAT-In sources (same issue as other FLARM serial protocol traffic displays), and their ADS-B/1090ES receivers have the same issues as PowerFLARM with lack of TIS-B and ADS-R receive capability. If you do ask them, ask very careful questions for what exactly they support with ADS-B systems in the USA. They really are very much European focused.



On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
Total Cost about $14,000 USD
ROY

Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout). And I would add the Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B. I would also use the Air Avionics altimeter (it's awesome!).

Schleicher has a thing about circuit breakers (?!).

Tom

Thanks for the response. I revisited the TN72 and found that Trig is now making two different versions of the TN72: the TN72 TABS GPS and the TN72 X GPS, the later providing SIL 3 and full ADS-B out compliance for non-certified aircraft (which my 31Mi will be, thank God!). It is unclear to me, however, whether these are actually two different products, or are configured to be one or the other upon installation (https://www.trig-avionics.com/produc...gps-receiver/).

Any other certified GPS is large and is a challenge to mount in our gliders. The GDL 82 could be mounted anywhere in the aircraft (within reason), so that made it attractive. The TN72 is small, and can definitely be mounted behind the instrument panel.

Tom

I think I found the answer to my own question: there is only one version of the TN72, configuration means the other components you have to have to meet full ADS-B Out compliance (this includes a certified GPS antenna). Here is an example of a fully compliant bundle which includes the TN72, TT22, antenna and control head:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...ickkey=3436497
This is a bargain as it is only $700 more than just the TN70 by itself. The only wart is finding a place for the antenna, but this is mandatory for any fully compliant ADS-B Out installation. Rex says I can put it in the baggage area.

Tom
Craggy Aero sells that Bundle for $2525.

Call to order

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

Craggy Aero also supplies custom harnesses for the installation and has all in stock.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 4:22:42 PM UTC-7, OHM Ω http://aviation..derosaweb.net wrote:
On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:26 PM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
Circuit breakers (not fuses)
ROY

I don't have a comment on which instruments to purchase. I only want to agree with Roy on circuit breakers over fuses. Also I feel that you should not use small value breakers (or fuses) less than 4A or you will pay a price in lost volts.

I prefer 5A+ combo breaker/switches (i.e. Tyco W31) over plain breakers. Tyco's are bulky as compared to Klixon but the Tyco eliminates a separate switch and a additional failure point. I don't agree with using a plain breaker as a switch.

One other thing I like separate on/off switches for those avionics that don't have their own internal power off capability (I have two such devices - ClearNav and FLARM Core) to be able to reset a device or if you need to save dwindling power at the end of a long flight.

Best of luck.

John OHM Ω

John,

My problem is that I have identified 16 breakers and fuses. Some have to be fuses per Schleicher (about 4), so that leaves 12 breakers. The Tyco is over twice the area of the Klixon, by about 0.5 sq in. That means I have to come up with another 6 sq in of panel area, or 1 1/2 instruments. That just ain't happening.

Tom