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  #11  
Old January 17th 20, 08:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Posts: 668
Default WWGC.

On Friday, 17 January 2020 20:11:52 UTC+2, wrote:

Now that the information is out, it seems a fair penalty. Unfortunate for the pilots, impossible to know the degree of complicity there, if any. I'd feel like a pretty big idiot right now if I was the coach of Jo Davis. This took her off the podium at a world championship. That will sting.
The advantage of cheating was used (to whatever degree) every day of the contest and so to me the penalty now seems appropriate. That said I really have no idea, I'm not a contest pilot, but it would equate to about a 20 point penalty per day, eliminating any real likelyhood of winning, which it should.
Seems obvious to me that any reasonably honest soul can see that hacking the tracking info is unfair play, and would obviously be illegal. The 15 min. delay is there for obvious reasons. It's a soaring contest, not an IT contest. It doesn't need to be written down anywhere to be enforced. It's cheating.
And it seems there is a larger and larger group of people that are able to come up with justifications for what is obviously that.


True, it was a fair penalty and this is going to be an important precedent.

"Ground controlling" the pilots is something that whole team has to bear the responsibility, not only the guy on the ground telling relaying info. Medal was lost because of the penalty, but it might as well be won because of cheating.
  #12  
Old January 17th 20, 08:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default WWGC.

Doping race horses, throwing a boxing match, stealing baseball signals,
and now this.Â* Whoda thunk it?

On 1/17/2020 12:09 PM, krasw wrote:
On Friday, 17 January 2020 20:11:52 UTC+2, wrote:
Now that the information is out, it seems a fair penalty. Unfortunate for the pilots, impossible to know the degree of complicity there, if any. I'd feel like a pretty big idiot right now if I was the coach of Jo Davis. This took her off the podium at a world championship. That will sting.
The advantage of cheating was used (to whatever degree) every day of the contest and so to me the penalty now seems appropriate. That said I really have no idea, I'm not a contest pilot, but it would equate to about a 20 point penalty per day, eliminating any real likelyhood of winning, which it should.
Seems obvious to me that any reasonably honest soul can see that hacking the tracking info is unfair play, and would obviously be illegal. The 15 min. delay is there for obvious reasons. It's a soaring contest, not an IT contest. It doesn't need to be written down anywhere to be enforced. It's cheating.
And it seems there is a larger and larger group of people that are able to come up with justifications for what is obviously that.

True, it was a fair penalty and this is going to be an important precedent.

"Ground controlling" the pilots is something that whole team has to bear the responsibility, not only the guy on the ground telling relaying info. Medal was lost because of the penalty, but it might as well be won because of cheating.


--
Dan, 5J
  #13  
Old January 17th 20, 09:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Default WWGC.

Huge resources are committed to WGC. I think the organizers and the sanctioning body owe the competitors a fair competition at a minimum.

225 pts means you aren't serious about the infraction, and you look forward to more of the same.

T8
  #14  
Old January 17th 20, 11:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobW
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Posts: 504
Default WWGC.

Huge resources are committed to WGC. I think the organizers and the
sanctioning body owe the competitors a fair competition at a minimum.

225 pts means you aren't serious about the infraction, and you look forward
to more of the same.


Congratulations to Sarah Arnold !and every other competitor who abided by the
rules, explicit and implicit)!!!

Opining as someone 100% ignorant of the rules as they apply to this sort of
cheating, were I king, the entire team woulda been disqualified, end of
discussion. Kinda-sorta related, can anyone advise me where I can go to have
my moral compass inexpensively removed?

Bob W.
  #15  
Old January 17th 20, 11:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie Quebec
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Posts: 253
Default WWGC.

It cost one pilot a win, that’s a pretty fair sanction.
  #16  
Old January 17th 20, 11:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Al McNamara[_4_]
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Posts: 14
Default WWGC.

At 22:21 17 January 2020, Charlie Quebec wrote:
It cost one pilot a win, that=E2=80=99s a pretty fair sanction.

So having looked at the rules, I can't see anything which forbids this in
this competition. No 'hacking' was involved. There are lots of freely
available sites that show the live data.

The UK competition rules were changed last year to specifically forbid
this, but the rules of this comp don't appear to have done so. I wonder
what the US rules say?

  #17  
Old January 18th 20, 12:08 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie Quebec
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Posts: 253
Default WWGC.

The problem was accessing the live tracking without a delay, via pst access allowed. This gave an unfair advantage apparently.
  #18  
Old January 18th 20, 12:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Daly[_2_]
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Posts: 718
Default WWGC.

On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 6:00:05 PM UTC-5, Al McNamara wrote:
At 22:21 17 January 2020, Charlie Quebec wrote:
It cost one pilot a win, that=E2=80=99s a pretty fair sanction.

So having looked at the rules, I can't see anything which forbids this in
this competition. No 'hacking' was involved. There are lots of freely
available sites that show the live data.

The UK competition rules were changed last year to specifically forbid
this, but the rules of this comp don't appear to have done so. I wonder
what the US rules say?


I'm guessing that it was from Local Procedures V9.1 para 4.1.1.c: Carriage of GNSS data transmitters for public displays
The organizers will require competing sailplanes to carry GNSS data transmitters to enable the public display of GNSS flight records during competition flights. Such display will not begin before the start line is opened and the actual positions of the sailplanes shall be displayed with a time delay of at least 15 minutes. This delay may be reduced to zero prior the finish..

  #19  
Old January 18th 20, 12:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Al McNamara[_4_]
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Posts: 14
Default WWGC.

At 23:11 17 January 2020, Dan Daly wrote:
On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 6:00:05 PM UTC-5, Al McNamara wrote:
At 22:21 17 January 2020, Charlie Quebec wrote:
It cost one pilot a win, that=3DE2=3D80=3D99s a pretty fair sanction.

So having looked at the rules, I can't see anything which forbids this

in
this competition. No 'hacking' was involved. There are lots of freely
available sites that show the live data.
=20
The UK competition rules were changed last year to specifically forbid
this, but the rules of this comp don't appear to have done so. I

wonder
what the US rules say?


I'm guessing that it was from Local Procedures V9.1 para 4.1.1.c:

Carriage
=
of GNSS data transmitters for public displays
The organizers will require competing sailplanes to carry GNSS data
transmi=
tters to enable the public display of GNSS flight records during
competitio=
n flights. Such display will not begin before the start line is opened

and
=
the actual positions of the sailplanes shall be displayed with a time
delay=
of at least 15 minutes. This delay may be reduced to zero prior the
finish=

But nothing which forbids teams from accessing live data via any of the
many sites that show it, and nothing which restricts what teams can discuss
with pilots on the allocated frequencies. I'm not suggesting that we
should be allowing this in competitions going forward (but ultimately do
wonder how it can be effectively policed) rather questioning whether any
rules in this comp were actually broken.

  #20  
Old January 18th 20, 12:46 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 190
Default WWGC.

If anything, the penality response to the 2019 WWGC "real time tracking" has sent the message its OK to cheat in FAI soaring competitions. How disgraceful, how disappointing! A one-time 225 point penality is absurd considering it "covers" 9 days of scoring.

So the question ... what should the penality be in this instance? Opining: First, team pilots should be given a contest score of 1 point per contest day. Following: Team management, technicians, and pilots should be banned from the premisess of any World Gliding Championships for the next two championships.

Directed to Eric Mozer and Rick Sheppe: It is my deepest hope the IGC will amend Annex A to install harsher penalties for rule infractions deemed "Unsporting Behavior". Above and beyond all, soaring needs to eliminate cheating.

IGC, please step up.

 




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