Gasohol

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:30:38 GMT, "Blueskies"
wrote:


"Blueskies" wrote in message t...

"Denny" wrote in message oups.com...


Your alka seltzer fizzes in water. It all by itself does not detect alcohol...

And now for the rest of the story....

Step 1....
Got a clean urine sample cup - meaning unused...
Using a sterile syringe I added 1.5cc of denatured alcohol (S-L-X
brand) from a previously opened can, which will have an unknown % of
absorbed water vapor, to the sample cup...
Dropped in a small chunk of Alka Seltzer Original...
Faint fizzing noted - you will have to be gimlet eyed to see it - but
it does fizz... So, we can assume that "pure" alcohol ( a weak
organic acid that always contains absorbed water) will 'fizz' Alka-
Seltzer (contains bicarb of soda) if a bit faintly...

Step 2....
Added 0.4 cc of warm weak tea ( it was handy) in 0.1cc increments...
Fizzing rate essentially doubled, or a bit more, by the time I reached
the 0.4 cc value... Easy to see... This is 26% imbibed water in the
alcohol... Dunno what effect the pH of the tea had - I assume that
word that it might enhance the fizzing from the bicarb...

**** the intellectual reason for the tea besides it being in my hand
is that water condensed on a metallic surface will be weakly
acidic****

Step 3...
Dumped the liquid from the cup and added a dash of tap water...
Fizzing about tripled the rate from Step 2...


Alka-Seltzer does not fizz explosively, like Arm&Hammer bicarbonate of
soda would because it is buffered with citric acid... you will need
to google on buffering and rate of reactions to understand some of
that

Unfortunately, for scientific rigor, I do not have any so called
gasoline handy to test with... I have one minute to start seeing
patients and I suspect they will not be impressed of I reek of the
nasty crap they sell for gas these days...

denny


Thanks Denny, good post, esp. the "so called gasoline" comment...



Went down to 'the shore' the other day and was able to check out the fuel pumps for the boats. The label on the pump
said "100% Pure Gasoline". So, the implication here is that unless you see a label that says 100% pure, you are most
likely getting gasohol. There needs to be a lawsuit or something to get the pumps labeled correctly...

And you would sue who?

In Michigan the pumps are required to have a lable. That lable states
this fuel meets Michigan quality standard something or other. Nothing
is said about Alcohol. Back in the 70s the labels stated This gas
contains 10% Ethenol or something to that effect. Maybe Denny know why
it was changed.

"Roger (K8RI)" wrote in message ...
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:30:38 GMT, "Blueskies"
wrote:


"Blueskies" wrote in message t...

Went down to 'the shore' the other day and was able to check out the fuel pumps for the boats. The label on the pump
said "100% Pure Gasoline". So, the implication here is that unless you see a label that says 100% pure, you are most
likely getting gasohol. There needs to be a lawsuit or something to get the pumps labeled correctly...

And you would sue who?

In Michigan the pumps are required to have a lable. That lable states
this fuel meets Michigan quality standard something or other. Nothing
is said about Alcohol. Back in the 70s the labels stated This gas
contains 10% Ethenol or something to that effect. Maybe Denny know why
it was changed.



Yes, that is my and a few others' point. It seems that any other product sold in the USA has some sort of truth in
labeling requirement. The feds dropped the requirement to indicate ethanol in the gasoline a few years ago, and since
that time the so-called gasoline is getting cut with higher and higher levels of ethanol. This is giving all of us lower
and lower gas mileage per gallon burned. This would never happen with any other product sold in the USA. It is false
marketing and should be challenged.

Just happened to catch CSPAN this afternoon, and they were debating the so-called energy bill. Amazing the comments from
both sides, and not one mention about how inefficient it is to make ethanol from corn! Believe it or not, the dems were
arguing for marked based corn prices, while the republicans were trying to get price controls in place. Jay's Iowa
senator is all for this corn subsidy stuff...simply baffling...

Looks like they thought they were aligning with national standards. From
a timeline report by that state's Renewable Fuels Commission:

"2003—Michigan State Legislature adopts and Governor Jennifer Granholm
approves property tax incentives for the manufacturing and blending of
biodiesel fuel. State legislation for mandatory labeling of 10% ethanol
blends at Michigan service station gasoline pumps is changed to be
consistent with national voluntary label standards..."

It is interesting, as I'd thought the first gasahol was 15% ethanol, but
there's no way to know whether local blends are ten, fifteen or some
random percent. Makes it hard to test performance, doesn't it?


Roger (K8RI) wrote:

In Michigan the pumps are required to have a lable. That lable states
this fuel meets Michigan quality standard something or other. Nothing
is said about Alcohol. Back in the 70s the labels stated This gas
contains 10% Ethenol or something to that effect. Maybe Denny know why
it was changed.

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:29:52 -0700, Stella Starr
wrote:

Looks like they thought they were aligning with national standards. From
a timeline report by that state's Renewable Fuels Commission:

"2003—Michigan State Legislature adopts and Governor Jennifer Granholm
approves property tax incentives for the manufacturing and blending of
biodiesel fuel. State legislation for mandatory labeling of 10% ethanol
blends at Michigan service station gasoline pumps is changed to be
consistent with national voluntary label standards..."

It is interesting, as I'd thought the first gasahol was 15% ethanol, but
there's no way to know whether local blends are ten, fifteen or some
random percent. Makes it hard to test performance, doesn't it?


In Michigan I think it's 10% and has been. Alcohol costs more than
gas now days. The only reason it's priced so low is due to subsidies.

Our early Gasohol was 10% here although back then I don't think there
was a standard. OTOH back then it took nearly 1 1/2 to two gallons of
fuel to make one gallon of ethanol.


Roger (K8RI) wrote:

In Michigan the pumps are required to have a lable. That lable states
this fuel meets Michigan quality standard something or other. Nothing
is said about Alcohol. Back in the 70s the labels stated This gas
contains 10% Ethenol or something to that effect. Maybe Denny know why
it was changed.

"Roger (K8RI)" wrote in message ...
On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:29:52 -0700, Stella Starr
wrote:

Looks like they thought they were aligning with national standards. From
a timeline report by that state's Renewable Fuels Commission:

"2003-Michigan State Legislature adopts and Governor Jennifer Granholm
approves property tax incentives for the manufacturing and blending of
biodiesel fuel. State legislation for mandatory labeling of 10% ethanol
blends at Michigan service station gasoline pumps is changed to be
consistent with national voluntary label standards..."

It is interesting, as I'd thought the first gasahol was 15% ethanol, but
there's no way to know whether local blends are ten, fifteen or some
random percent. Makes it hard to test performance, doesn't it?


In Michigan I think it's 10% and has been. Alcohol costs more than
gas now days. The only reason it's priced so low is due to subsidies.

Our early Gasohol was 10% here although back then I don't think there
was a standard. OTOH back then it took nearly 1 1/2 to two gallons of
fuel to make one gallon of ethanol.




Which then gets you 75% of the mileage of 'pure gasoline'.

On Jun 3, 8:02 am, "Peter Dohm" wrote:
"David Lesher" wrote in message

...



B A R R Y writes:

Ken Finney wrote:

I already am, but there an STC for diesels in 172s.

Running on Jet-A, not Biodiesel.

Which is just kerosene...

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

There are really three of issues (that I can recall) he
1) A diesel will run on any hydrocarbon fuel that it can pump and meter.
2) Different seals and hoses are compatible with different
chemicals--although it would be no surprise to find that all were compatible
with biodiesel.
3) Certified aircraft/engines require fuels authorized in the type
certificate and/or an STC.

My understanding is that biodiesel is compatible with all common
elastomeric components used in diesel systems. It has somewhat
higher lubricity and detergent properties compared with petroleum
diesel.

So the first tankful might clean enough crud out of the fuel system
to
foul the fuel filter. After changing that filter, the engine should
run
cleaner.

One reported problem with biodiesel is that it gels at low
temperatures.

--

FF

On Jun 3, 10:50 pm, nrp wrote:
an easy way to have a line freeze and turn the plane into a glider.

Then why don't cars have line freezing trouble with E-10 gas? Here in
Minnesota, gas line freezeups have essentially disappeared because of
the mandated E-10. It is the only good thing about gasahpol
though...........

I think a major reason not to use E-10 in certificated aircraft is the
~5% power reduction.

Alcohol is an emulsifier that keeps water mixed with gasoline. It is
also an antifreeze that supresses the freezing temperature of water.
If you have a car that has ice in the fuel line, adding alcohol will
melt
it.

--

FF

On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 18:46:05 -0700, wrote:

On Jun 3, 10:50 pm, nrp wrote:
an easy way to have a line freeze and turn the plane into a glider.

Then why don't cars have line freezing trouble with E-10 gas? Here in
Minnesota, gas line freezeups have essentially disappeared because of
the mandated E-10. It is the only good thing about gasahpol
though...........

I think a major reason not to use E-10 in certificated aircraft is the
~5% power reduction.

Alcohol is an emulsifier that keeps water mixed with gasoline. It is
also an antifreeze that supresses the freezing temperature of water.
If you have a car that has ice in the fuel line, adding alcohol will
melt
it.
And adding a bit more water makes the water and alky drop out od
suspension. Called Phase Separation. It's temperature sensitive, so in
a plane at ground level you may still have gasahol, but at 4000 feet,
you are about 16 degrees F. colder - and that may be enough to trip
the phase separation. Bad Ju-Ju when the engine gets a gulp of watered
down hooch when it's expecting gasoline.

On 2 stroke engines (ultralights, snowmobiles etc) when this happens
the engine not only looses fuel, but it looses lubrication too,
because the separated hooch has no oil in it. It's at the bottom of
the tank, where the pickup is, so pistons are often destroyed before
the driver/pilot even knows he has a problem.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

wrote:
On Jun 3, 10:50 pm, nrp wrote:
an easy way to have a line freeze and turn the plane into a glider.
Then why don't cars have line freezing trouble with E-10 gas? Here in
Minnesota, gas line freezeups have essentially disappeared because of
the mandated E-10. It is the only good thing about gasahpol
though...........

I think a major reason not to use E-10 in certificated aircraft is the
~5% power reduction.


I think ethanol in gasoline is a stupid waste of agricultural resources,
but if you are the typical GA pilot an you're computing your safety
margins out close enough that 5% makes a difference, you're likely to be
removed from the gene pool before long anyway.

On Jun 7, 6:20 pm, M wrote:
On Jun 3, 7:31 pm, SS2MO wrote:

Currently retailers can save money by adding alcohol to the gasoline
because the alcohol is less expensive than gasoline, so they can blen
it in and sell it to you as auto gasoline - you may not know it.

I don't believe it's true anymore. At some point last year or so
wholesale price of ethonal started to exceed the wholesale price of 87
octane gasoline.

Today in Chicago, wholesale gasoline is trading at $2.30 per gallon.
This does not include freight to haul it from the terminal to the
retail outlet, taxes or the retailer margin. Ethanol in Chicago today
is trading for $2.05 per gallon. The blender of the ethanol receives
a 51 cent per gallon credit, so blending 10% alcohol reduces the price
5.1 cents per gallon.

$2.30 X 90% = $2.07
$2.05 - .051 X 10% = $.1997

$2.07 + $.1997 = $2.2697

This means that a retailer can blend alcohol tolday and sell it to you
as gasoline and save 3.03 cents per gallon. In many locations this is
double their margin.