How do you find the limits of areas on a chart?

Gary Drescher writes:

However, airspaces in such close proximity almost always occur in congested
areas where a plethora of landmarks let you identify the boundaries with
precision. Do you have a contrary example in mind?

I usually use the GPS, because it takes too long to switch back and
forth from instruments to window to sectional or terminal chart.

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Gig 601XL Builder writes:

The chart has a metric butt load of landmarks. Hell, I'd go so far to say
that it is mostly landmarks.

I don't see that many, but even if that were true, do you really have
time to continually check them all to see how close you are to nearby
airspace boundaries, while in flight?

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B A R R Y writes:

The expired chart offer still stands... G

Postage overseas is expensive.

There are shaded lines denoting E/G space. Most of a chart can be E, so
the E/G line can be difficult to find.

B, C, and D are easy, they have solid and dotted lines, as well as
numbers denoting lateral and vertical limits.

They are all easy to find on the chart, but I'm concerned about
finding them outside the window, without a GPS that shows them.

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Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Unfortunately, by the time you've figured this all out, you've
collided with a fighter jet.

Only if you were so paranoid about it that you sat there staring at your
charts and calculators instead of looking out the window.

However, since an MOA is nonrestrictive in nature, and there's no real harm
in being a few miles further outside it's boundary than you could be with a
GPS, looking out the window seems to suffice.

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Gig 601XL Builder writes:

The chart has a metric butt load of landmarks. Hell, I'd go so far to say
that it is mostly landmarks.

I don't see that many, but even if that were true, do you really have
time to continually check them all to see how close you are to nearby
airspace boundaries, while in flight?

--


As a matter of fact you do.

For this example the restricted airspace is on your right. You know that on
your track the closest you are going to come to a given boundary is at point
X. You would look at the chart and find something or group of somethings at
or near point X and then make sure you fly to the left of them.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Judah writes:

You can use multiple points to determine your location with a fair
amount of precision, and you can estimate with a fair amount of
accuracy your distance from the landmarks.

Even as you are flying? There are a lot of airspaces to worry about.

Yes. When you are driving, how do you ensure that you are maintaining a
safe distance from the guardrail, or from the car in front of or next to
you? How about from a Stop Sign or Traffic Light?

Do you do this equally as well as you did the first time you got into a
car? Do you need a GPS to do this?

The same sort of judgement of distances is possible when piloting an
airplane. Someone who learns to fly in the real worlds learns to discern
three dimensions and estimate distance. Unfortunately, this cannot be
effectively done on a two-dimensional simulator screen.

Many places. By the time you've carefully calculated whether or not
you're in one of them, you're no longer there, but you've violated two
other airspaces. Even in small private planes, things move quickly.

Careful calculation is not required. And certainly there is no harm in
leaving yourself a bit of lattitude if you don't have tools to do it with
exacting precision.

Mxsmanic wrote:

B, C, and D are easy, they have solid and dotted lines, as well as
numbers denoting lateral and vertical limits.

They are all easy to find on the chart, but I'm concerned about
finding them outside the window, without a GPS that shows them.

Without GPS:

Most B & C, and lots of D airports have a VORTAC on the field. DME
will tell you the distance from the DME station, which is usually near
the center of the field, and the airspace.. Otherwise, you need to
establish where you are using off-field VOR radials and/or chart denoted
visual landmarks. Easy landmarks include airports, roads (especially
intersections), cities, towers, stacks, power lines, water feature,
etc... I haven't flown with an NDB in a long time, so I can't comment
on using those.

This is taught, tested, and developed during training, and good pilots
put a lot of effort into location awareness. With practice, it becomes
easy, possibly second nature.

Typically, you wouldn't fly right up to the edge of sensitive airspace
unless you had a very high confidence in your position. If it's a
controlled airspace situation, you'd get clearance or establish two-way
communications, as required, while still obviously outside the space.
If I'm flying near, over, or under controlled airspace, I'll at least
monitor the frequency, and call if I'm near.

If the space is completely restricted, why poke at the beast? You'd
simply give it a reasonable, without-a-doubt cushion while passing by.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Gary Drescher writes:

However, airspaces in such close proximity almost always occur in
congested areas where a plethora of landmarks let you identify the
boundaries with precision. Do you have a contrary example in mind?

I usually use the GPS, because it takes too long to switch back and
forth from instruments to window to sectional or terminal chart.

In real life, you don't need to hit buttons to look out the windows.

Mxsmanic wrote:
B A R R Y writes:

The expired chart offer still stands... G

Postage overseas is expensive.

It's not so bad, so keep it in mind. I can only wallpaper so many walls
with old charts...

Judah wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Judah writes:
The same sort of judgement of distances is possible when piloting an
airplane. Someone who learns to fly in the real worlds learns to discern
three dimensions and estimate distance. Unfortunately, this cannot be
effectively done on a two-dimensional simulator screen.

That's a good point. While you can pick out some landmarks on a sim
screen, it's very difficult to constantly rotate your view around and
get the spatial relationship that you can in real life.

Many places. By the time you've carefully calculated whether or not
you're in one of them, you're no longer there, but you've violated two
other airspaces. Even in small private planes, things move quickly.

Yes, things can move quickly. That's why it takes training to become a
real life pilot. The latter must learn to be constantly aware of the
airplane's location and heading, and to stay one or more steps ahead of
the plane. It's a skill that can get rusty, for sure.

Kev