How do you find the limits of areas on a chart?

Mxsmanic wrote:
I see tons of restricted areas, MOAs, Class B, C, D, E airspace, and
the like on charts, but no clear indication of how to locate the
boundaries of these areas other than by pure guesstimate based on
looking at the chart. On rare occasions I see a radial noted as the
boundary of an area, or a radius, but in many cases there is nothing.
How in the world are you supposed to know when you are inside or
outside one of these areas, if you are not flying miles away from
them?

Yes, GPS units and some other devices may provide real-time display of
one's position with these areas superimposed, but such devices have
not always been available.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

I'm assuming your are talking about cross country flights. Most pilots
get to know their local area really well without a map. If you are
flying vfr you should be identifying visual checkpoints constantly and
if you are on a X/C flight you should be flying your flight plan, even
if you don't file. You need to know where you are and where you are
headed at all times. If it gets too hazy to identify ground references
than you are probably in marginal vfr or worse. If you want to fly
higher than the turkey vultures I suggest you buy a really good gps and
keep the thing updated. Or better yet spend the time and money and get
an ifr rating and go play at altitude with ATC. The thing that
concerns me most when I fly X/C vfr is the TFR's that pop up suddenly,
especially around election time. You can get a briefing and 10 minutes
later the Pres. or VP or some Senator decides to change his destination
to yours, and if you're not talking to somebody to let you know what's
going on.., well good luck. I use to fly more vfr X/C's but not
anymore. Now I just file ifr, go high and enjoy the fuel savings.

FlynCatfish

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
...
"Judah" wrote in message
. ..
The same sort of judgement of distances is possible when piloting an
airplane. Someone who learns to fly in the real worlds learns to discern
three dimensions and estimate distance. Unfortunately, this cannot be
effectively done on a two-dimensional simulator screen.

I don't think that's true. Except when you're within a few feet of the
ground, depth perception by binary parallax and focal length doesn't come
into play when you're flying; so except for the landing flare, a 2D screen
is sufficient. All the navigation tasks Mx is asking about can be
performed quite nicely using MSFS; in fact, it's great practice.


While MSFS has some great scenery especially around the larger urban areas
it isn't accurate enough to navigate by especially in non-urban areas.

"Wolfgang Schwanke" wrote in message
...
Mxsmanic wrote in

I usually use the GPS, because it takes too long to switch back and
forth from instruments to window to sectional or terminal chart.

Your original question was how to do it without technology, and your
questioning that it was possible at all.


Wolfgang have you not read his posts? This is his MO.

On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 10:47:38 +0100, Mxsmanic wrote:
Robert M. Gary writes:

The sectional chart is used with a plotter. The plotter measures
distance and can figure direction.

I googled for this and found only software.

I presume you mean the mechanical arm-like device that I've seen being
using with flat charts on tables in movies?

No, the plotter he's talking about is a combined protractor
and ruler made of transparent plastic. The ruler's scales are
calibrated to match distances on aeronautical charts.

You can see what they look like at:

http://www.sportys.com/acb/webpage.cfm?&DID=19&WebPage_ID=68

Certainly that might be useful, but what about during flight?
Chart tables would be awkward in the cockpit (although large
aircraft with navigators might have them).

It's possible to whip out a plotter and measure distances and
headings on a folded-up sectional chart in your lap in a typical
light aircraft cockpit, but it's not very convenient.

Typically you'd use a plotter for flight planning on the ground.
Use the ruler to draw a line on the chart along your intended
course, use the protractor to measure the angle between your
course and a north-south line on the chart, and use the scale
on the ruler to find distances.

To answer your original question, in the pre-GPS era most people
would plot course legs that would keep them well clear of restricted
airspace. Make sure you stay near your planned course using a
combination of pilotage and dead reckoning, and you don't have to
worry about exactly where the boundary of the restricted airspace
is.

Seriously, if you want to learn this stuff, you might want to
buy a private pilot ground school textbook of some sort, a plotter,
and a sectional chart or two. Use the textbook to find out how to
plan a flight using a plotter and charts, and then fly it in your
simulator.


ljd

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

Roy Smith writes:

What I have found works well is to just wing it. If I guess wrong, an F-16
pulls up beside me and gives me directions. It's really a very convenient
system.

Has that actually happened? Don't you risk being cited for the
airspace violation?

No worries about being violated. I always keep a PBA card in the
windshield.

On 11/2/06 4:58 AM, in article ,
"Mxsmanic" wrote:

Dan writes:

I think if you're going to thread tight areas in an unfamiliar metro
area these days, you'd better have a GPS with airspace depiction.
Sure, you may be able to do it via pilotage, but then again you could
easily screw up and bust class B (or worse).

I think a GPS is useful in any case--but how do pilots without moving
maps and GPS do it?

VOR triangulation. It's technical.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
While MSFS has some great scenery especially around the larger urban areas
it isn't accurate enough to navigate by especially in non-urban areas.

Depends on what add-ons you have. Many new ones have the terrain
derived from satellite imagery. For example, with MegaScenery New
York, I can fly around a lot of northern New Jersey and actually follow
the roads to my house. People in England have add-ons that reportedly
let them see their house!

And... coolest of all... someone did an addon instrument that
reportedly lets you drive Google Earth in sync with MSFS. So you get
the satellite imagery there along with arrows to airports if you wish
etc.

Kev

Robert M. Gary writes:

Two answers. First, when I'm flying my Mooney around at near the speed
of sound I just have a rough idea of where the airspace is and use ATC
and the GPS to avoid it.

What type of Mooney is it? I didn't know there were any that could
approach the speed of sound.

However, when I fly the J-3 (and when I first started flying) I carried
a small plotter. You can use it in flight. In fact I'm required to make
sure my students can use it in flight for navigation and diversion. You
can use it in flight.
I still carry a small plotter in the pocket of my seat. I have multiple
scales on it so I can use it for IFR charts too but it also works for
sectionals.

I looked up "chart plotter" on Google, but I don't seem to be finding
any mechanical devices, just software for PCs and the like.

I have one that has a Wizwheel built in and I use it regularly. Its
easier for me to figure TAS using the wizwheel then puching numbers
into the GPS to computer it. The Wizwheel is still a close friend of
mine. When I flew the GPS, the Wizwheel, my watch, and my plotter were
the *only* navigation tools I had.

What is a Wizwheel? It sounds almost like a slide rule.

Slide rules are obsolete now, but they were (and remain) extremely
well suited to some of the types of calculations that pilots and
others must do rapidly under less than ideal conditions. Does anyone
still use them for aviation?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Wolfgang Schwanke writes:

http://www.flightstore.co.uk/images/...rop_1_1241.jpg

Thanks. Still looks a bit awkward to use in flight. I mean, you have
to manipulate the device and the chart at the same time, and you have
no table, and you still have to fly the plane. It looks very awkward.

You do your flight planning before take-off.

But what if the plan must change during the flight?

Traditionally, you draw a line on the map along the path you plan
to fly, you mark it with time ticks, and in regular intervals
you mark important landmarks that allow you to check that you're
still on course. You only really have to do
map work when an expected landmark doesn't show up at the expected
time, causing you to suspect that you're off course.

The map must get pretty messy after a while, although I suppose that
if you have to buy a new one every month, it doesn't matter too much.

It's hard to imagine squinting at the map in flight. Multiple pilots
have told me that it's possible, though. I'd have to watch them do it
to see how they manage. Certainly reading maps in a car is extremely
awkward, although aircraft can be configured to fly in a more stable
way than a car drives, so I suppose that helps.

Having a copilot would change everything, of course.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Laurence Doering writes:

No, the plotter he's talking about is a combined protractor
and ruler made of transparent plastic. The ruler's scales are
calibrated to match distances on aeronautical charts.

You can see what they look like at:

http://www.sportys.com/acb/webpage.cfm?&DID=19&WebPage_ID=68

I see now. Thanks. Still looks a bit inconvenient for use in flight,
although it would be easy enough to use for planning on a desk or
table. Not very expensive, either, compared to most of the other
stuff on the site ($995 for a pair of headphones that costs only $20
to make??). Definitely a rich man's hobby.

It's possible to whip out a plotter and measure distances and
headings on a folded-up sectional chart in your lap in a typical
light aircraft cockpit, but it's not very convenient.

And the aircraft is still flying. I know aircraft can be configured
to fly straight and level for long distances, especially with an
autopilot, but still ... it seems that one could get into trouble
quickly while peering at the chart.

Typically you'd use a plotter for flight planning on the ground.
Use the ruler to draw a line on the chart along your intended
course, use the protractor to measure the angle between your
course and a north-south line on the chart, and use the scale
on the ruler to find distances.

That sounds easy enough.

To answer your original question, in the pre-GPS era most people
would plot course legs that would keep them well clear of restricted
airspace. Make sure you stay near your planned course using a
combination of pilotage and dead reckoning, and you don't have to
worry about exactly where the boundary of the restricted airspace
is.

I'm glad that my original question is being answered, thanks.

Seriously, if you want to learn this stuff, you might want to
buy a private pilot ground school textbook of some sort, a plotter,
and a sectional chart or two. Use the textbook to find out how to
plan a flight using a plotter and charts, and then fly it in your
simulator.

I'm not sure what books to buy, and I can't buy anything off the Net
because I don't have a working credit card. There are a couple of
good pilot shops here, but their choice of English-language books is
limited (and very expensive, as always), with most stuff being in
French. Similarly, the only charts I can find locally are French
charts, and my simulator flights are mostly in the western United
States. I can find the charts online now, but obviously it's hard to
use this plotter device with an LCD screen.

Nevertheless, I'm trying to use the online charts more for flight
planning, particularly for flights with VATSIM, where others might
notice my mistakes.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.