Do you crab or forward slip in X wind landings

Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over crab. Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this might be a useful discussion for newer pilots.

On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 13:03:59 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was
taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I
transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over crab.
Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this might
be a useful discussion for newer pilots.

Standard UK training, at least when I learnt and I haven't heard any
different from our instructors since, is to crab with wings level on
approach and kick the glider straight just before touchdown. Another
point is that we are taught to do fully held-off landings regardless of
the size and surface of the club field on the grounds that its the only
sensible way to land out, so we should be able to do it well. I think the
two are related because this keeps the wings level while speed bleeds off
and its fairly easy to kick the glider straight as it settles. If you
also manage a neat two-pointer you can award yourself brownie points as
well as knowing that this will help to keep the glider running straight
despite any cross-wind.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 4:29:42 PM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 13:03:59 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was
taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I
transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over crab.
Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this might
be a useful discussion for newer pilots.

Standard UK training, at least when I learnt and I haven't heard any
different from our instructors since, is to crab with wings level on
approach and kick the glider straight just before touchdown. Another
point is that we are taught to do fully held-off landings regardless of
the size and surface of the club field on the grounds that its the only
sensible way to land out, so we should be able to do it well. I think the
two are related because this keeps the wings level while speed bleeds off
and its fairly easy to kick the glider straight as it settles. If you
also manage a neat two-pointer you can award yourself brownie points as
well as knowing that this will help to keep the glider running straight
despite any cross-wind.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

What two seater is being used to teach fully held off landings?

-Evan

On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 14:00:50 -0800, Tango Eight wrote:

On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 4:29:42 PM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 13:03:59 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was
taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I
transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over
crab.
Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this
might
be a useful discussion for newer pilots.

Standard UK training, at least when I learnt and I haven't heard any
different from our instructors since, is to crab with wings level on
approach and kick the glider straight just before touchdown. Another
point is that we are taught to do fully held-off landings regardless of
the size and surface of the club field on the grounds that its the only
sensible way to land out, so we should be able to do it well. I think
the two are related because this keeps the wings level while speed
bleeds off and its fairly easy to kick the glider straight as it
settles. If you also manage a neat two-pointer you can award yourself
brownie points as well as knowing that this will help to keep the
glider running straight despite any cross-wind.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |

What two seater is being used to teach fully held off landings?

In my club, all of our trainers. We have a couple of ASK-21s, a Puchacz
and a G103 Twin Acro 2.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 1:00:51 AM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 4:29:42 PM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 13:03:59 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was
taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I
transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over crab.
Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this might
be a useful discussion for newer pilots.

Standard UK training, at least when I learnt and I haven't heard any
different from our instructors since, is to crab with wings level on
approach and kick the glider straight just before touchdown. Another
point is that we are taught to do fully held-off landings regardless of
the size and surface of the club field on the grounds that its the only
sensible way to land out, so we should be able to do it well. I think the
two are related because this keeps the wings level while speed bleeds off
and its fairly easy to kick the glider straight as it settles. If you
also manage a neat two-pointer you can award yourself brownie points as
well as knowing that this will help to keep the glider running straight
despite any cross-wind.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

What two seater is being used to teach fully held off landings?

I doubt people are doing *fully* held off landings i.e. with the glider actually stalling on. More likely it's "held off until the glider is in the same attitude it will have on the ground .. or a tiny bit more" and then allowed to settle in that attitude. As it slows, lift at that AoA becomes insufficient to support the glider, but there is never aerodynamic stall. Maximum AoA / CL is not reached. Once you touch the ground AoA can not be increased, so lift can't be, so you can't start flying again (absent a massive headwind gust) and the *objectives* of a "fully held off" landing are acheived..

Even nose-draggers like the ASK21 have a tail wheel and are landed main-and-tail or slightly tail first.

The only exception I know is the PW5. I've never seen anyone land a PW5 tail first. We had an informal challenge to do it when we first got ours. No one managed it.

On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 23:19:45 -0800, Bruce Hoult wrote:

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 1:00:51 AM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 4:29:42 PM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 13:03:59 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was
taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I
transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over
crab.
Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this
might
be a useful discussion for newer pilots.

Standard UK training, at least when I learnt and I haven't heard any
different from our instructors since, is to crab with wings level on
approach and kick the glider straight just before touchdown. Another
point is that we are taught to do fully held-off landings regardless
of the size and surface of the club field on the grounds that its the
only sensible way to land out, so we should be able to do it well. I
think the two are related because this keeps the wings level while
speed bleeds off and its fairly easy to kick the glider straight as
it settles. If you also manage a neat two-pointer you can award
yourself brownie points as well as knowing that this will help to
keep the glider running straight despite any cross-wind.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org |

What two seater is being used to teach fully held off landings?

I doubt people are doing *fully* held off landings i.e. with the glider
actually stalling on. More likely it's "held off until the glider is in
the same attitude it will have on the ground .. or a tiny bit more" and
then allowed to settle in that attitude. As it slows, lift at that AoA
becomes insufficient to support the glider, but there is never
aerodynamic stall. Maximum AoA / CL is not reached. Once you touch the
ground AoA can not be increased, so lift can't be, so you can't start
flying again (absent a massive headwind gust) and the *objectives* of a
"fully held off" landing are acheived.

Even nose-draggers like the ASK21 have a tail wheel and are landed
main-and-tail or slightly tail first.

The only exception I know is the PW5. I've never seen anyone land a PW5
tail first. We had an informal challenge to do it when we first got
ours. No one managed it.

Good description. I've never flown a PW6, but I have flown a PW5 and
suppose its also near impossible to fully hold off. Of course fully held
off landings work a treat for ASK-13s and T-21s: both have a nose skid.

In my experience my Std Libelle is the hardest glider to hold off for a
nice two-point landing, primarily because the weak airbrakes mean that if
you start raising the nose even slightly early it will balloon, but its
always a nice end to a flight when both wheels touch the floor together.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

One comment on the crab method, you must transition to forward slip before touchdown. What if when you if you go to kick out the crab, just above runway and you find out that the x-wind is too strong for a forward slip to maintain track.

On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 1:29:42 PM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 13:03:59 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was
taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I
transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over crab.
Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this might
be a useful discussion for newer pilots.

Standard UK training, at least when I learnt and I haven't heard any
different from our instructors since, is to crab with wings level on
approach and kick the glider straight just before touchdown. Another
point is that we are taught to do fully held-off landings regardless of
the size and surface of the club field on the grounds that its the only
sensible way to land out, so we should be able to do it well. I think the
two are related because this keeps the wings level while speed bleeds off
and its fairly easy to kick the glider straight as it settles. If you
also manage a neat two-pointer you can award yourself brownie points as
well as knowing that this will help to keep the glider running straight
despite any cross-wind.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 14:01:00 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

One comment on the crab method, you must transition to forward slip
before touchdown. What if when you if you go to kick out the crab,
just above runway and you find out that the x-wind is too strong for a
forward slip to maintain track.

If I do the crab+held-off landing properly, I should be under 3 ft up (at
the very most: half that is better) and already sinking when I kick the
glider straight. If you're too early straightening up, of course you're
being blown sideways when you land.

AFAIK the upwind wing low technique you guys call 'forward slip' isn't
taught to UK glider pilots. I was never taught it and can't recall seeing
anybody using it on our field.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Yaw string and coordination in big Xwind landings is my question, with a real life experience that happened to me... I still wonder if I did the right thing 3 years ago. Could someone in the know talk about the lack of any coordination in these situations?

After returning to the field at 3500' agl, the wind had turned on final, 90 degrees to the left across the only possible place to land, on a plowed dirt strip. AWOS had the wind solid at 20 gusting to 28. I lingered as long as I could but the massive cell to the east was not moving or letting up. Nothing but rough desert landscape everywhere and altitude winding down.

Field partially disappearing in dust at 800 ft. I set speed at 70 kts, turned base into the wind, then final and into a deep forward slip, windward wing down, way down, but not quite holding my target from drifting away from me to windward. The yaw string was aligned nearly 70 degrees across the canopy which Really got me alarmed. I was calm, pretty smooth and super focused. Out of the slip and into a huge crap, no problem. Yaw string was now about 30-40 degrees out with my wings level crab at maybe 30 degrees to the left. Had control of my target now with partial spoilers. Field length maybe 500 yards long or so. I went to the deck and released rudder and flared, lowered my left wing tip a bit I think. Did a wheel landing at maybe 40, full spoilers and into breaks as the field seemed to be getting short. Wind got under my left wing and put the leeward wing down into the dirt at 15+ kts or so on the roll out. Lost the wing tip skid but held it mostly straight with my big rudder.
I heard conflicting advice and comments about coordination and this landing.
Sorry for the long post.

Originally Posted by Martin Gregorie[_5_]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 13:03:59 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was
taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I
transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over crab.
Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this might
be a useful discussion for newer pilots.

Standard UK training, at least when I learnt and I haven't heard any
different from our instructors since, is to crab with wings level on
approach and kick the glider straight just before touchdown. Another
point is that we are taught to do fully held-off landings regardless of
the size and surface of the club field on the grounds that its the only
sensible way to land out, so we should be able to do it well. I think the
two are related because this keeps the wings level while speed bleeds off
and its fairly easy to kick the glider straight as it settles. If you
also manage a neat two-pointer you can award yourself brownie points as
well as knowing that this will help to keep the glider running straight
despite any cross-wind.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 10:43:08 AM UTC+3, POPS wrote:
Yaw string and coordination in big Xwind landings is my question, with
a real life experience that happened to me... I still wonder if I did
the right thing 3 years ago. Could someone in the know talk about the
lack of any coordination in these situations?

After returning to the field at 3500' agl, the wind had turned on
final, 90 degrees to the left across the only possible place to land,
on a plowed dirt strip. AWOS had the wind solid at 20 gusting to 28. I
lingered as long as I could but the massive cell to the east was not
moving or letting up. Nothing but rough desert landscape everywhere and
altitude winding down.

Field partially disappearing in dust at 800 ft. I set speed at 70 kts,
turned base into the wind, then final and into a deep forward slip,
windward wing down, way down, but not quite holding my target from
drifting away from me to windward. The yaw string was aligned nearly 70
degrees across the canopy which Really got me alarmed. I was calm,
pretty smooth and super focused. Out of the slip and into a huge crap,
no problem. Yaw string was now about 30-40 degrees out with my wings
level crab at maybe 30 degrees to the left. Had control of my target
now with partial spoilers. Field length maybe 500 yards long or so. I
went to the deck and released rudder and flared, lowered my left wing
tip a bit I think. Did a wheel landing at maybe 40, full spoilers and
into breaks as the field seemed to be getting short. Wind got under my
left wing and put the leeward wing down into the dirt at 15+ kts or so
on the roll out. Lost the wing tip skid but held it mostly straight with
my big rudder.
I heard conflicting advice and comments about coordination and this
landing.
Sorry for the long post.





'Martin Gregorie[_5_ Wrote:
;939235']On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 13:03:59 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
-
Do you crab or forward slip landing in x-winds and why? When I was
taught how to fly an airplane the crab method was used when I
transitioned to gliders my instructor emphasized forward slip over
crab.
Years later I have established my procedures, but I thought this
might
be a useful discussion for newer pilots.-

Standard UK training, at least when I learnt and I haven't heard any
different from our instructors since, is to crab with wings level on
approach and kick the glider straight just before touchdown. Another
point is that we are taught to do fully held-off landings regardless of

the size and surface of the club field on the grounds that its the only

sensible way to land out, so we should be able to do it well. I think
the
two are related because this keeps the wings level while speed bleeds
off
and its fairly easy to kick the glider straight as it settles. If you
also manage a neat two-pointer you can award yourself brownie points as

well as knowing that this will help to keep the glider running straight

despite any cross-wind.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |




--
POPS

Why would your yaw string be 30 - 40 degrees to one side in a crab? It should be dead straight.