Round out and flare with fully open spoilers in a PW-6? Other gliders?

Posted a reply.
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Have a nice day.

On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 4:20:26 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 3:30:05 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
it is GOOD to push the envelope at the home field on a normal day

Yup, medical attention will be there quicker,
and there's more help to stuff the pieces back in the trailer...

I understood his message to be to learn the limits and know what you can do before doing it in a strange field. Seems like a good idea to me.
UH

At 11:06 27 March 2018, wrote:

Now I see students being taught to make approaches to landing using
very
li=
ttle spoiler and continuous adjustments until touchdown. I call it the
powe=
r approach, I have stressed to some of the instructors that at some
point
t=
he full spoiler approach to touchdown could be very helpful and
increase
th=
e glider pilots skill.

I have never flown a glider that could not be landed with full
airbrake/spoiler.

I have witnessed many poor landings and a few where the glider has
been broken. In most cases and in all cases where the glider has been
broken the primary cause has been the same, too little or reducing
airbrake. Reducing the amount of airbrake before roundout is the best
way I know of breaking a glider.

Well, if reducing airbrake on landing meant they hit a tree/fence/solid object, yep, I may agree.

On my post 3/27 (which I believe someone thought I meant, "learn to be a test pilot" at the home field), get current, then do things towards the edges of the POH.
I see many that fly in the "middle 30% of the POH" and then are asked to heads towards the 100%, sometimes off field.
Get current, then move the flying/landing towards the limits in a sorta controlled way.
Calm day at home means you know the field, know the clues

You never know when bad planning means coming over trees into the bottom of a gravel pit. That is NOT the time to become sharp.

Sounds like your "broken gliders" with full or modulated brakes means too much time in the middle 30% and no training or exposure to the edges of the POH.

The only caveat I would make is to be careful about landing with fully open spoilers on a glider whose wheel brake is actuated by the spoiler lever!

otherwise, it's a good thing to practice - I know of one case where full spoilers were deployed accidentally and could not be retracted when part of the control mechanism broke.

Mike

On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 12:01:47 PM UTC-5, Mike the Strike wrote:
The only caveat I would make is to be careful about landing with fully open spoilers on a glider whose wheel brake is actuated by the spoiler lever!

otherwise, it's a good thing to practice - I know of one case where full spoilers were deployed accidentally and could not be retracted when part of the control mechanism broke.

Mike

Agree - something I like to practice every spring. Good reminder to check the spoilers mid field on downwind where a full-spoiler approach and landing can still be done!

66

At 15:52 02 April 2018, Charlie M. UH & 002 owner/pilot wrote:
Well, if reducing airbrake on landing meant they hit a
tree/fence/solid
object, yep, I may agree.

On my post 3/27 (which I believe someone thought I meant, "learn
to be a
test pilot" at the home field), get current, then do things towards
the
edges of the POH.
I see many that fly in the "middle 30% of the POH" and then are
asked to
heads towards the 100%, sometimes off field.
Get current, then move the flying/landing towards the limits in a
sorta
controlled way.
Calm day at home means you know the field, know the clues

You never know when bad planning means coming over trees into
the bottom of
a gravel pit. That is NOT the time to become sharp.

Sounds like your "broken gliders" with full or modulated brakes
means too
much time in the middle 30% and no training or exposure to the
edges of the
POH.

Actually I didn't, the gliders I have seen broken were the result of
PIO which comes from reducing airbrake.
I do not know about the rest of the world but in the UK full airbrake
approach/landing is the norm. If you are going to be short the
teaching is to fully close the airbrake and re-establish, then use at
least half airbrake, more is preferable. To little airbrake on roundout
is more risky than too much.
If using full airbrake the pilot must ensure that if the wheel brake is
"on the end" of the airbrake that the lever is positioned to ensure
the wheel brake is not applied. This does not require the brake
paddles to be moved in any significant amount.

Le mardi 3 avril 2018 02:15:05 UTC+2, Don Johnstone a écritÂ*:
At 15:52 02 April 2018, Charlie M. UH & 002 owner/pilot wrote:
Well, if reducing airbrake on landing meant they hit a
tree/fence/solid
object, yep, I may agree.

On my post 3/27 (which I believe someone thought I meant, "learn
to be a
test pilot" at the home field), get current, then do things towards
the
edges of the POH.
I see many that fly in the "middle 30% of the POH" and then are
asked to
heads towards the 100%, sometimes off field.
Get current, then move the flying/landing towards the limits in a
sorta
controlled way.
Calm day at home means you know the field, know the clues

You never know when bad planning means coming over trees into
the bottom of
a gravel pit. That is NOT the time to become sharp.

Sounds like your "broken gliders" with full or modulated brakes
means too
much time in the middle 30% and no training or exposure to the
edges of the
POH.

Actually I didn't, the gliders I have seen broken were the result of
PIO which comes from reducing airbrake.
I do not know about the rest of the world but in the UK full airbrake
approach/landing is the norm. If you are going to be short the
teaching is to fully close the airbrake and re-establish, then use at
least half airbrake, more is preferable. To little airbrake on roundout
is more risky than too much.
If using full airbrake the pilot must ensure that if the wheel brake is
"on the end" of the airbrake that the lever is positioned to ensure
the wheel brake is not applied. This does not require the brake
paddles to be moved in any significant amount.

Well, where I fly and teach, a full airbrake approach is considered poor airmanship.
We train students to be on a stabilized approach with about half airbrakes at least during the second half of final. Half airbrakes give you the possibility to correct both ways.
If you are on a full airbrake approach to an outlanding field and you discover that you are too high, in many gliders you could call the insurance company right away.
And even if you need to touch down shorft behind a tree line, we teach that the approach should be half airbrakes until the tree tops, and then everything out.

I do not know about the rest of the world but in the UK full airbrake
approach/landing is the norm. If you are going to be short the
teaching is to fully close the airbrake and re-establish, then use at
least half airbrake, more is preferable. To little airbrake on roundout
is more risky than too much.
If using full airbrake the pilot must ensure that if the wheel brake is
"on the end" of the airbrake that the lever is positioned to ensure
the wheel brake is not applied. This does not require the brake
paddles to be moved in any significant amount.

Don,

Go and read the the BGA instructor's manual! It's available to everyone
on
the BGA website. The manual calls for the standard approach to be 1/2 to

2/3 airbrake thus giving you the freedom to correct for overshoot and
undershoot conditions.

Perhaps during your many years in the Air Training Corps you did
something different.

At 08:50 03 April 2018, James Thomson wrote:

I do not know about the rest of the world but in the UK full airbrake
approach/landing is the norm. If you are going to be short the
teaching is to fully close the airbrake and re-establish, then use at
least half airbrake, more is preferable. To little airbrake on roundout
is more risky than too much.
If using full airbrake the pilot must ensure that if the wheel brake is
"on the end" of the airbrake that the lever is positioned to ensure
the wheel brake is not applied. This does not require the brake
paddles to be moved in any significant amount.

Don,

Go and read the the BGA instructor's manual! It's available to
everyon
on
the BGA website. The manual calls for the standard approach to be
1/2 t

2/3 airbrake thus giving you the freedom to correct for overshoot and
undershoot conditions.

Perhaps during your many years in the Air Training Corps you did
something different.

You should not confuse what is taught with what is done in practice. My
point was that too much brake when in the final stages of landing is
better than too little. Nowhere have I said that anything other than the
standard approach is taught.