Retrieve Contact - Radio Relay?

On Sep 20, 7:15*pm, Robert Gaines
wrote:
In other words, making an (emergency?) call on common

frequencies to establish contact with a private or commercial flight,
with the request to relay the information to your intended contact by
radio or phone.

Unless things have changed, commercial (Airliners) do not monitor 121.5.
*Bob

Do not? Like no airlines out there listening? Like no airline requires
or recommends this in their SOP? Like crews won't guard 121.5 even if
their company SOP does not require it? I suspect that just is not
correct and is certainly the wrong message to send.

I think the airlines are pretty individual about whether this is a
requirement or recommendation in their SOP or not. Some airline pilots
might want to speak up.

There is an ICAO requirement (in Annex 10, Part 5) for airlines to
guard 121.5. This at least is required on long overwater flights and
more ambiguously "where carriage of an ELT is required". What exactly
the later means is open to some interpretation. I think the net is
many intentional airlines will have guarding 121.5 in their SOP.

The bottom line is it's worth trying there is often people listening
on 121.5. Including lots of airlines whether it is their company SOP
or not.

---

And while on ELTs in the ICAO rule above, new 406MHz ELTs and PLBs
still also transmit a (low power) beacon on 121.5 so airliners and
others guarding that frequency for ELT as well as voice still makes
sense. But now hopefully as people refresh their ELTs with newer units
the false alarm rate will go down. And just a hint if your buddy is
flying with a Personal Locator Beacon (more common that ELTs in
gliders) and you think he may be down/in distress tune to 121.5 and
you should hear the distress "siren" sound, with the addition of a
morse code "P" (for PLB) dit dah dah dit. This only applies to USA
licensed PLBs, in other countries there is no Morse code "P".


Darryl

On Sep 20, 9:08*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

The bottom line is it's worth trying there is often people listening
on 121.5. Including lots of airlines whether it is their company SOP
or not.


Darryl

A couple of years ago, wife and I came across a body in the Black Rock
desert of Nevada while flying low in the Husky - - thought he was for
sure dead. After landing and determining he was still alive, we called
on 121.5 for medical assistance. Airliner overhead answered up
immediately. In fact, there were at least a couple of other aircraft
answering at the same time (including another Husky up by the NV / OR
border) - - they were stepping on each other answering up! Airliner
relayed to Reno Approach for us, as we were 100 nm north of there with
no cell coverage and no chance of getting other ground stations on the
radio from our position.

Guy survived, btw, though I don't think he'd have lasted though the
day in that heat if he hadn't been found.

bumper
zz
Minden

On Sep 20, 7:15*pm, Robert Gaines
wrote:

Unless things have changed, commercial (Airliners) do not monitor 121.5.
*Bob

This is incorrect.

Quite the opposite in fact, when after 9/11, we were reminded to
monitor this frequency since the military will be calling us during an
interception.

Airlines DO monitor it! You should hear the number of times Jet Blue
or United try to get a "push back" from the gate on 121.5!!!...:-)

Single engine are also supposed to monitor it. Every month I hear the
Air Force trying to get a heads up to someone who is about to enter a
restricted airspace...

Richard

On Sep 21, 8:02*am, jeplane wrote:
On Sep 20, 7:15*pm, Robert Gaines
wrote:

Unless things have changed, commercial (Airliners) do not monitor 121.5..
*Bob

This is incorrect.

Quite the opposite in fact, when after 9/11, we were reminded to
monitor this frequency since the military will be calling us during an
interception.

Airlines DO monitor it! You should hear the number of times Jet Blue
or United try to get a "push back" from the gate on 121.5!!!...:-)

Single engine are also supposed to monitor it. Every month I hear the
Air Force trying to get a heads up to someone who is about to enter a
restricted airspace...

Richard

I managed to arrange a radio relay on my one and only landout so far.
I ended up getting a hold of one of my gliding buddies on 123.3, and
he had the tow plane come up to the strip where I had landed for an
aero retrieve.

As for 121.5 The AIM does "encourage" you to listen on 121.5 if
possible in flight.

AIM 5-6-2 - http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publi...5/aim0506.html

"All aircraft operating in the U.S. national airspace, if capable,
will maintain a listening watch on VHF guard 121.5 or UHF 243.0."

Peter

On Sep 20, 6:57*pm, CindyB wrote:
On Sep 20, 11:46*am, sisu1a wrote:



Does anyone have any real-life experience using this method? *Or any
input on how the FAA (in the US) might view this strategy?

- Frank

Pre-celly, this used to be common practice, and I suspect commonly
I'm not sure on the FAA's take on it,
but I imagine that it falls into the realm of legal usage of the freq.
The FCC however may feel otherwise if you aren't current on your
license to operate a 2 way

-Paul

This is a very valid techinique.
It is not to be used in place of normal comm procedures,
or to substitute for poor planning, but I have been party to using it
in several situations.

Local pilot wanders off on first Spring X-C, with no ship batteries,
poor handheld batteries, and more enthusiasm than sense.
When the day overbuilds and cuts him off from home, he outlands.
He calls in the blind on the 'approach' frequency, and gets an
enroute G.A. pilot to switch to the home airport CTAF and relay a
message. *The airplane pilot handled his changes off/on to the
ATC frequency. *Very considerate airplane guy, and happy to involve
himself. Knowing the enroute local ATC frfequency was about the
best part of the day's execution by that glider pilot.

Tonopah Nationals .... big CBs end the day, folks scattered all
over creation. *Contest Air goes up to relay line-of-sight for crews
and
pilots seeking each other. *Poor radio quality due to the HEAVY
rain showers and interior glider cockpit noise on the ground,
and lightning in many quadrants. *Contest Air goes home. *One
crew was enterprising enough to use scan function on their handy-
talkie and ask the airliner to switch for an 'urgent' relay. The
airliner
reached the pilot, now not in heavy rain on the ground, and got
his position and handed data to crew.

Remember to WAIT for the relay time and the other party out of
range to answer to the relaying airborn machine, rather than
stepping on transmissions. . .

Region 12 contest at Inyokern, 1999? *Beloved silly Fred Ebner had
not been heard from and it was long after dark. *We had launched
Contest Air for relays, sent Air *on course line ( love those AST's
for finding folks late in the evenings), still never raised the pilot.
Phoned ATC to ask for the assistance on both possible
frequencies, and handled listening and thank yous from the
contest HQ ground. *Three airplanes tried to help that
night. *Turns out, Fred was hiking from the wrong side of the
Owens River, with no hand held, to cross the water and reach the
highway. *He was tired, dry, cranky, and not in the mood to be
reprimanded for not either 1)staying with the glider, or 2) having
a ground communication method during the walk or 3) relaying
out from the glider prior to walking. *We were certain to thank
ATC for their help with a follow up phone call when we found Fred.

Landouts can be serious for pilot health and safety in the
'boonies'. *Communications can be important to prevent
unneccesary search or worries. *If the radio work is handled
fairly professionally, with good cause, no one *(FAA/FCC)
will make a fuss.

Cindy Bwww.caracolesoaring.com

A few years ago I shared a chair lift with an FAA big-wig and asked
the same.
Response was: a very valid method, provided you make intent clear,
i.e.: asking for relay, not an emergency.
I would also try Aircraft Corp. frequencies first, that are monitored.
Here is a good source:
http://ku4ay.net/scanner/airemergency.html
Bela

On Sep 21, 3:15*pm, Bela wrote:
On Sep 20, 6:57*pm, CindyB wrote:



On Sep 20, 11:46*am, sisu1a wrote:

Does anyone have any real-life experience using this method? *Or any
input on how the FAA (in the US) might view this strategy?

- Frank

Pre-celly, this used to be common practice, and I suspect commonly
I'm not sure on the FAA's take on it,
but I imagine that it falls into the realm of legal usage of the freq..
The FCC however may feel otherwise if you aren't current on your
license to operate a 2 way

-Paul

This is a very valid techinique.
It is not to be used in place of normal comm procedures,
or to substitute for poor planning, but I have been party to using it
in several situations.

Local pilot wanders off on first Spring X-C, with no ship batteries,
poor handheld batteries, and more enthusiasm than sense.
When the day overbuilds and cuts him off from home, he outlands.
He calls in the blind on the 'approach' frequency, and gets an
enroute G.A. pilot to switch to the home airport CTAF and relay a
message. *The airplane pilot handled his changes off/on to the
ATC frequency. *Very considerate airplane guy, and happy to involve
himself. Knowing the enroute local ATC frfequency was about the
best part of the day's execution by that glider pilot.

Tonopah Nationals .... big CBs end the day, folks scattered all
over creation. *Contest Air goes up to relay line-of-sight for crews
and
pilots seeking each other. *Poor radio quality due to the HEAVY
rain showers and interior glider cockpit noise on the ground,
and lightning in many quadrants. *Contest Air goes home. *One
crew was enterprising enough to use scan function on their handy-
talkie and ask the airliner to switch for an 'urgent' relay. The
airliner
reached the pilot, now not in heavy rain on the ground, and got
his position and handed data to crew.

Remember to WAIT for the relay time and the other party out of
range to answer to the relaying airborn machine, rather than
stepping on transmissions. . .

Region 12 contest at Inyokern, 1999? *Beloved silly Fred Ebner had
not been heard from and it was long after dark. *We had launched
Contest Air for relays, sent Air *on course line ( love those AST's
for finding folks late in the evenings), still never raised the pilot.
Phoned ATC to ask for the assistance on both possible
frequencies, and handled listening and thank yous from the
contest HQ ground. *Three airplanes tried to help that
night. *Turns out, Fred was hiking from the wrong side of the
Owens River, with no hand held, to cross the water and reach the
highway. *He was tired, dry, cranky, and not in the mood to be
reprimanded for not either 1)staying with the glider, or 2) having
a ground communication method during the walk or 3) relaying
out from the glider prior to walking. *We were certain to thank
ATC for their help with a follow up phone call when we found Fred.

Landouts can be serious for pilot health and safety in the
'boonies'. *Communications can be important to prevent
unneccesary search or worries. *If the radio work is handled
fairly professionally, with good cause, no one *(FAA/FCC)
will make a fuss.

Cindy Bwww.caracolesoaring.com

A few years ago I shared a chair lift with an FAA big-wig and asked
the same.
Response was: *a very valid method, provided you make intent clear,
i.e.: *asking for relay, not an emergency.
I would also try Aircraft Corp. frequencies first, that are monitored.
Here is a good source:http://ku4ay.net/scanner/airemergency.html
Bela

Other than 121.5, a good frequency would be the ATC sector frequency
for that area. These are shown on the IFR enroute charts and listed in
the DOD IFR supplement and probably in the Airport/Facility Directory.
This is what you would find with a scanning hand held radio, as some
are quite busy.

bgrly

On Sep 21, 3:35*pm, bgrly wrote:
On Sep 21, 3:15*pm, Bela wrote:



On Sep 20, 6:57*pm, CindyB wrote:

On Sep 20, 11:46*am, sisu1a wrote:

Does anyone have any real-life experience using this method? *Or any
input on how the FAA (in the US) might view this strategy?

- Frank

Pre-celly, this used to be common practice, and I suspect commonly
I'm not sure on the FAA's take on it,
but I imagine that it falls into the realm of legal usage of the freq.
The FCC however may feel otherwise if you aren't current on your
license to operate a 2 way

-Paul

This is a very valid techinique.
It is not to be used in place of normal comm procedures,
or to substitute for poor planning, but I have been party to using it
in several situations.

Local pilot wanders off on first Spring X-C, with no ship batteries,
poor handheld batteries, and more enthusiasm than sense.
When the day overbuilds and cuts him off from home, he outlands.
He calls in the blind on the 'approach' frequency, and gets an
enroute G.A. pilot to switch to the home airport CTAF and relay a
message. *The airplane pilot handled his changes off/on to the
ATC frequency. *Very considerate airplane guy, and happy to involve
himself. Knowing the enroute local ATC frfequency was about the
best part of the day's execution by that glider pilot.

Tonopah Nationals .... big CBs end the day, folks scattered all
over creation. *Contest Air goes up to relay line-of-sight for crews
and
pilots seeking each other. *Poor radio quality due to the HEAVY
rain showers and interior glider cockpit noise on the ground,
and lightning in many quadrants. *Contest Air goes home. *One
crew was enterprising enough to use scan function on their handy-
talkie and ask the airliner to switch for an 'urgent' relay. The
airliner
reached the pilot, now not in heavy rain on the ground, and got
his position and handed data to crew.

Remember to WAIT for the relay time and the other party out of
range to answer to the relaying airborn machine, rather than
stepping on transmissions. . .

Region 12 contest at Inyokern, 1999? *Beloved silly Fred Ebner had
not been heard from and it was long after dark. *We had launched
Contest Air for relays, sent Air *on course line ( love those AST's
for finding folks late in the evenings), still never raised the pilot..
Phoned ATC to ask for the assistance on both possible
frequencies, and handled listening and thank yous from the
contest HQ ground. *Three airplanes tried to help that
night. *Turns out, Fred was hiking from the wrong side of the
Owens River, with no hand held, to cross the water and reach the
highway. *He was tired, dry, cranky, and not in the mood to be
reprimanded for not either 1)staying with the glider, or 2) having
a ground communication method during the walk or 3) relaying
out from the glider prior to walking. *We were certain to thank
ATC for their help with a follow up phone call when we found Fred.

Landouts can be serious for pilot health and safety in the
'boonies'. *Communications can be important to prevent
unneccesary search or worries. *If the radio work is handled
fairly professionally, with good cause, no one *(FAA/FCC)
will make a fuss.

Cindy Bwww.caracolesoaring.com

A few years ago I shared a chair lift with an FAA big-wig and asked
the same.
Response was: *a very valid method, provided you make intent clear,
i.e.: *asking for relay, not an emergency.
I would also try Aircraft Corp. frequencies first, that are monitored.
Here is a good source:http://ku4ay.net/scanner/airemergency.html
Bela

Other than 121.5, a good frequency would be the ATC sector frequency
for that area. These are shown on the IFR enroute charts and listed in
the DOD IFR supplement and probably in the Airport/Facility Directory.
This is what you would find with a scanning hand held radio, as some
are quite busy.

bgrly

I carried these when I flew regularly out of Truckee. Got a retrieve
assist after landing out by calling on an overhead frequency then
moving to a discrete frequency.

Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Sep 21, 3:35 pm, bgrly wrote:
On Sep 21, 3:15 pm, Bela wrote:



On Sep 20, 6:57 pm, CindyB wrote:
On Sep 20, 11:46 am, sisu1a wrote:
Does anyone have any real-life experience using this method? Or any
input on how the FAA (in the US) might view this strategy?
- Frank
Pre-celly, this used to be common practice, and I suspect commonly
I'm not sure on the FAA's take on it,
but I imagine that it falls into the realm of legal usage of the freq.
The FCC however may feel otherwise if you aren't current on your
license to operate a 2 way
-Paul
This is a very valid techinique.
It is not to be used in place of normal comm procedures,
or to substitute for poor planning, but I have been party to using it
in several situations.
Local pilot wanders off on first Spring X-C, with no ship batteries,
poor handheld batteries, and more enthusiasm than sense.
When the day overbuilds and cuts him off from home, he outlands.
He calls in the blind on the 'approach' frequency, and gets an
enroute G.A. pilot to switch to the home airport CTAF and relay a
message. The airplane pilot handled his changes off/on to the
ATC frequency. Very considerate airplane guy, and happy to involve
himself. Knowing the enroute local ATC frfequency was about the
best part of the day's execution by that glider pilot.
Tonopah Nationals .... big CBs end the day, folks scattered all
over creation. Contest Air goes up to relay line-of-sight for crews
and
pilots seeking each other. Poor radio quality due to the HEAVY
rain showers and interior glider cockpit noise on the ground,
and lightning in many quadrants. Contest Air goes home. One
crew was enterprising enough to use scan function on their handy-
talkie and ask the airliner to switch for an 'urgent' relay. The
airliner
reached the pilot, now not in heavy rain on the ground, and got
his position and handed data to crew.
Remember to WAIT for the relay time and the other party out of
range to answer to the relaying airborn machine, rather than
stepping on transmissions. . .
Region 12 contest at Inyokern, 1999? Beloved silly Fred Ebner had
not been heard from and it was long after dark. We had launched
Contest Air for relays, sent Air on course line ( love those AST's
for finding folks late in the evenings), still never raised the pilot.
Phoned ATC to ask for the assistance on both possible
frequencies, and handled listening and thank yous from the
contest HQ ground. Three airplanes tried to help that
night. Turns out, Fred was hiking from the wrong side of the
Owens River, with no hand held, to cross the water and reach the
highway. He was tired, dry, cranky, and not in the mood to be
reprimanded for not either 1)staying with the glider, or 2) having
a ground communication method during the walk or 3) relaying
out from the glider prior to walking. We were certain to thank
ATC for their help with a follow up phone call when we found Fred.
Landouts can be serious for pilot health and safety in the
'boonies'. Communications can be important to prevent
unneccesary search or worries. If the radio work is handled
fairly professionally, with good cause, no one (FAA/FCC)
will make a fuss.
Cindy Bwww.caracolesoaring.com
A few years ago I shared a chair lift with an FAA big-wig and asked
the same.
Response was: a very valid method, provided you make intent clear,
i.e.: asking for relay, not an emergency.
I would also try Aircraft Corp. frequencies first, that are monitored.
Here is a good source:http://ku4ay.net/scanner/airemergency.html
Bela
Other than 121.5, a good frequency would be the ATC sector frequency
for that area. These are shown on the IFR enroute charts and listed in
the DOD IFR supplement and probably in the Airport/Facility Directory.
This is what you would find with a scanning hand held radio, as some
are quite busy.

bgrly

I carried these when I flew regularly out of Truckee. Got a retrieve
assist after landing out by calling on an overhead frequency then
moving to a discrete frequency.
Now there's something I was wondering about. How would you know which
discrete freq to use? Would 123.5 be appropriate, or is there a better one?

Ed

On Sep 22, 7:09*am, Ed Winchester wrote:
Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Sep 21, 3:35 pm, bgrly wrote:
On Sep 21, 3:15 pm, Bela wrote:

On Sep 20, 6:57 pm, CindyB wrote:
On Sep 20, 11:46 am, sisu1a wrote:
Does anyone have any real-life experience using this method? *Or any
input on how the FAA (in the US) might view this strategy?
- Frank
Pre-celly, this used to be common practice, and I suspect commonly
I'm not sure on the FAA's take on it,
but I imagine that it falls into the realm of legal usage of the freq.
The FCC however may feel otherwise if you aren't current on your
license to operate a 2 way
-Paul
This is a very valid techinique.
It is not to be used in place of normal comm procedures,
or to substitute for poor planning, but I have been party to using it
in several situations.
Local pilot wanders off on first Spring X-C, with no ship batteries,
poor handheld batteries, and more enthusiasm than sense.
When the day overbuilds and cuts him off from home, he outlands.
He calls in the blind on the 'approach' frequency, and gets an
enroute G.A. pilot to switch to the home airport CTAF and relay a
message. *The airplane pilot handled his changes off/on to the
ATC frequency. *Very considerate airplane guy, and happy to involve
himself. Knowing the enroute local ATC frfequency was about the
best part of the day's execution by that glider pilot.
Tonopah Nationals .... big CBs end the day, folks scattered all
over creation. *Contest Air goes up to relay line-of-sight for crews
and
pilots seeking each other. *Poor radio quality due to the HEAVY
rain showers and interior glider cockpit noise on the ground,
and lightning in many quadrants. *Contest Air goes home. *One
crew was enterprising enough to use scan function on their handy-
talkie and ask the airliner to switch for an 'urgent' relay. The
airliner
reached the pilot, now not in heavy rain on the ground, and got
his position and handed data to crew.
Remember to WAIT for the relay time and the other party out of
range to answer to the relaying airborn machine, rather than
stepping on transmissions. . .
Region 12 contest at Inyokern, 1999? *Beloved silly Fred Ebner had
not been heard from and it was long after dark. *We had launched
Contest Air for relays, sent Air *on course line ( love those AST's
for finding folks late in the evenings), still never raised the pilot.

On Sep 22, 9:16*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Sep 22, 7:09*am, Ed Winchester wrote:



Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Sep 21, 3:35 pm, bgrly wrote:
On Sep 21, 3:15 pm, Bela wrote:

On Sep 20, 6:57 pm, CindyB wrote:
On Sep 20, 11:46 am, sisu1a wrote:
Does anyone have any real-life experience using this method? *Or any
input on how the FAA (in the US) might view this strategy?
- Frank
Pre-celly, this used to be common practice, and I suspect commonly
I'm not sure on the FAA's take on it,
but I imagine that it falls into the realm of legal usage of the freq.
The FCC however may feel otherwise if you aren't current on your
license to operate a 2 way
-Paul
This is a very valid techinique.
It is not to be used in place of normal comm procedures,
or to substitute for poor planning, but I have been party to using it
in several situations.
Local pilot wanders off on first Spring X-C, with no ship batteries,
poor handheld batteries, and more enthusiasm than sense.
When the day overbuilds and cuts him off from home, he outlands.
He calls in the blind on the 'approach' frequency, and gets an
enroute G.A. pilot to switch to the home airport CTAF and relay a
message. *The airplane pilot handled his changes off/on to the
ATC frequency. *Very considerate airplane guy, and happy to involve
himself. Knowing the enroute local ATC frfequency was about the
best part of the day's execution by that glider pilot.
Tonopah Nationals .... big CBs end the day, folks scattered all
over creation. *Contest Air goes up to relay line-of-sight for crews
and
pilots seeking each other. *Poor radio quality due to the HEAVY
rain showers and interior glider cockpit noise on the ground,
and lightning in many quadrants. *Contest Air goes home. *One
crew was enterprising enough to use scan function on their handy-
talkie and ask the airliner to switch for an 'urgent' relay. The
airliner
reached the pilot, now not in heavy rain on the ground, and got
his position and handed data to crew.
Remember to WAIT for the relay time and the other party out of
range to answer to the relaying airborn machine, rather than
stepping on transmissions. . .
Region 12 contest at Inyokern, 1999? *Beloved silly Fred Ebner had
not been heard from and it was long after dark. *We had launched
Contest Air for relays, sent Air *on course line ( love those AST's
for finding folks late in the evenings), still never raised the pilot.
Phoned ATC to ask for the assistance on both possible
frequencies, and handled listening and thank yous from the
contest HQ ground. *Three airplanes tried to help that
night. *Turns out, Fred was hiking from the wrong side of the
Owens River, with no hand held, to cross the water and reach the
highway. *He was tired, dry, cranky, and not in the mood to be
reprimanded for not either 1)staying with the glider, or 2) having
a ground communication method during the walk or 3) relaying
out from the glider prior to walking. *We were certain to thank
ATC for their help with a follow up phone call when we found Fred.
Landouts can be serious for pilot health and safety in the
'boonies'. *Communications can be important to prevent
unneccesary search or worries. *If the radio work is handled
fairly professionally, with good cause, no one *(FAA/FCC)
will make a fuss.
Cindy Bwww.caracolesoaring.com
A few years ago I shared a chair lift with an FAA big-wig and asked
the same.
Response was: *a very valid method, provided you make intent clear,
i.e.: *asking for relay, not an emergency.
I would also try Aircraft Corp. frequencies first, that are monitored.
Here is a good source:http://ku4ay.net/scanner/airemergency.html
Bela
Other than 121.5, a good frequency would be the ATC sector frequency
for that area. These are shown on the IFR enroute charts and listed in
the DOD IFR supplement and probably in the Airport/Facility Directory.
This is what you would find with a scanning hand held radio, as some
are quite busy.

bgrly

I carried these when I flew regularly out of Truckee. *Got a retrieve
assist after landing out by calling on an overhead frequency then
moving to a discrete frequency.

Now there's something I was wondering about. *How would you know which
discrete freq to use? *Would 123.5 be appropriate, or is there a better one?

Ed

Long time ago, IIRC we moved to the Truckee base for the relay.

Frank

I'll add that it facilitated communications as I could hear half of
the conversation as could Tahoe-Truckee Soaring. If the IFR enroute
frequency had failed, I was quite prepared to call on 121.5 to
establish comms initially. I landed at a small strip with a barn/
hangar and house, but no one around and a non-working phone at the
hangar. Had to wait until day operations ended. No one arrived
before the evening tow home.

Frank