Minutes of Fall 2014 USA Rules Committee meeting posted on SSA website

I do not believe that a smart phone AH app would be anywhere close to reliable or accurate enough for any sane person to fly efficiently in IMC (let alone cloud fly). Especially if there was any turbulence (thndr, etc). Personally, I would never risk my life to do this kind of thing, EVER! I have yet to play Russian Roulette with a thunderstorm. A few extra points in a glider contest is not that important to me and I imagine 99.9% of us feel exactly the same way.

To the .1%, if you can pull cloud flying off with an iPhone and still and stick the landing.....I say let you have your day! :-). I'll even buy you a beer at dinner and pat you on the back! It would be a kind of farewell beer however because you will probably be dead soon.

The other side of this debate has a "small" point about the fixed gyro, far more reliable "LX 9000" type AHRS. Sure, that would work for IMC moments and even cloud flying (I run an SN10/Oudie with iGlide/iPhone backup btw). But the key point with the old rule is that anyone with the "will" to cloud fly (cheat) was almost certainly doing it anyway. Reason, CDs did not know (or care) what disabled AHRS meant and never bothered to verify that pilots were in compliance. No spot checks were regularly conducted, etc. The idea was (as I understood it) that when you checked into a contest, just as you must show your insurance forms and other documents, you must also show that your firmware update to disable AHRS was properly installed. Furthermore, on the grid each day, CDs would be spot checking for smart phones and for "UN"disabled LX9000 type AHRS! If this happened MANY PILOTS would have been penalized in 2012/13/14! If this happen the rule would have been woethwhile. But this never, ever happened. Nobody really cared or bothered. That is a fact.

We simply do not have the collective will, or organizational skills to effectively enforce these rules. If people suspect this is happening, where are the protests? Show me a single one?

If people are cheating, it's not going to be a pleasant thing. Pilots and CDs must have to have the guts to call them out and try to catch them. You can't be nice about it while you call someone a cheater! It doesn't work. You have to be willing to break a few eggs.

Again, specific rules weren't the issue here. ENFORCEMENT was. This is why the rule has been trashed. If we are not going to enforce rules (zero protests or "convictions" I believe) then it it's not worth inconvienencing the 99.9% of honest pilots to jump thru hoops in order compete in a regional (or national) contest.

How about a rule that says if a pilot is suspected of cloud flying, a camera can be required? Do we have the guts to do that? I don't think so but I'll toss it out there...that would be a good rule. I would see it as a badge of honor actually :-).

On Tuesday, 27 January 2015 11:26:04 UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
I do not believe that a smart phone AH app would be anywhere close to reliable or accurate enough for any sane person to fly efficiently in IMC (let alone cloud fly). Especially if there was any turbulence (thndr, etc). Personally, I would never risk my life to do this kind of thing, EVER! I have yet to play Russian Roulette with a thunderstorm. A few extra points in a glider contest is not that important to me and I imagine 99.9% of us feel exactly the same way.

To the .1%, if you can pull cloud flying off with an iPhone and still and stick the landing.....I say let you have your day! :-). I'll even buy you a beer at dinner and pat you on the back! It would be a kind of farewell beer however because you will probably be dead soon.

The other side of this debate has a "small" point about the fixed gyro, far more reliable "LX 9000" type AHRS. Sure, that would work for IMC moments and even cloud flying (I run an SN10/Oudie with iGlide/iPhone backup btw).. But the key point with the old rule is that anyone with the "will" to cloud fly (cheat) was almost certainly doing it anyway. Reason, CDs did not know (or care) what disabled AHRS meant and never bothered to verify that pilots were in compliance. No spot checks were regularly conducted, etc. The idea was (as I understood it) that when you checked into a contest, just as you must show your insurance forms and other documents, you must also show that your firmware update to disable AHRS was properly installed. Furthermore, on the grid each day, CDs would be spot checking for smart phones and for "UN"disabled LX9000 type AHRS! If this happened MANY PILOTS would have been penalized in 2012/13/14! If this happen the rule would have been woethwhile. But this never, ever happened. Nobody really cared or bothered. That is a fact.

We simply do not have the collective will, or organizational skills to effectively enforce these rules. If people suspect this is happening, where are the protests? Show me a single one?

If people are cheating, it's not going to be a pleasant thing. Pilots and CDs must have to have the guts to call them out and try to catch them. You can't be nice about it while you call someone a cheater! It doesn't work. You have to be willing to break a few eggs.

Again, specific rules weren't the issue here. ENFORCEMENT was. This is why the rule has been trashed. If we are not going to enforce rules (zero protests or "convictions" I believe) then it it's not worth inconvienencing the 99.9% of honest pilots to jump thru hoops in order compete in a regional (or national) contest.

How about a rule that says if a pilot is suspected of cloud flying, a camera can be required? Do we have the guts to do that? I don't think so but I'll toss it out there...that would be a good rule. I would see it as a badge of honor actually :-).

Sean, your facts are wrong. At the Nephi regionals pilots identified that they had AHRS equipment and they either disabled them in front of me or showed that they were disabled for xx days that covered the contest. I spot checked once with a single pilot. I am not pointing this out not to pat myself on the back as I am sure other CD's did the same. Do I understand everything about every instrument and whether is can be reset? Not by a long shot.

Much of competition soaring is based on trust and personal integrity. Rules and/or enforcement techniques will never be effective as pilots who want to cheat will figure out how to do it. IMO peer pressure and enforcement is the best avenue.

Regarding smartphones I agree with you that they can never be policed. No contest personnel can check a every cockpit nor should they be expected to. Phones are stored in all locations within a cockpit and many times for safety.

The rule to require a camera if suspected of cloud flying is as ludicrous as weighing the top three finishers the following day at National events.

Ron Gleason

On Tuesday, January 27, 2015 at 4:02:57 PM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Tuesday, 27 January 2015 11:26:04 UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
I do not believe that a smart phone AH app would be anywhere close to reliable or accurate enough for any sane person to fly efficiently in IMC (let alone cloud fly). Especially if there was any turbulence (thndr, etc). Personally, I would never risk my life to do this kind of thing, EVER! I have yet to play Russian Roulette with a thunderstorm. A few extra points in a glider contest is not that important to me and I imagine 99.9% of us feel exactly the same way.

To the .1%, if you can pull cloud flying off with an iPhone and still and stick the landing.....I say let you have your day! :-). I'll even buy you a beer at dinner and pat you on the back! It would be a kind of farewell beer however because you will probably be dead soon.

The other side of this debate has a "small" point about the fixed gyro, far more reliable "LX 9000" type AHRS. Sure, that would work for IMC moments and even cloud flying (I run an SN10/Oudie with iGlide/iPhone backup btw). But the key point with the old rule is that anyone with the "will" to cloud fly (cheat) was almost certainly doing it anyway. Reason, CDs did not know (or care) what disabled AHRS meant and never bothered to verify that pilots were in compliance. No spot checks were regularly conducted, etc. The idea was (as I understood it) that when you checked into a contest, just as you must show your insurance forms and other documents, you must also show that your firmware update to disable AHRS was properly installed. Furthermore, on the grid each day, CDs would be spot checking for smart phones and for "UN"disabled LX9000 type AHRS! If this happened MANY PILOTS would have been penalized in 2012/13/14! If this happen the rule would have been woethwhile. But this never, ever happened. Nobody really cared or bothered. That is a fact.

We simply do not have the collective will, or organizational skills to effectively enforce these rules. If people suspect this is happening, where are the protests? Show me a single one?

If people are cheating, it's not going to be a pleasant thing. Pilots and CDs must have to have the guts to call them out and try to catch them. You can't be nice about it while you call someone a cheater! It doesn't work. You have to be willing to break a few eggs.

Again, specific rules weren't the issue here. ENFORCEMENT was. This is why the rule has been trashed. If we are not going to enforce rules (zero protests or "convictions" I believe) then it it's not worth inconvienencing the 99.9% of honest pilots to jump thru hoops in order compete in a regional (or national) contest.

How about a rule that says if a pilot is suspected of cloud flying, a camera can be required? Do we have the guts to do that? I don't think so but I'll toss it out there...that would be a good rule. I would see it as a badge of honor actually :-).

Sean, your facts are wrong. At the Nephi regionals pilots identified that they had AHRS equipment and they either disabled them in front of me or showed that they were disabled for xx days that covered the contest. I spot checked once with a single pilot. I am not pointing this out not to pat myself on the back as I am sure other CD's did the same. Do I understand everything about every instrument and whether is can be reset? Not by a long shot.

Much of competition soaring is based on trust and personal integrity. Rules and/or enforcement techniques will never be effective as pilots who want to cheat will figure out how to do it. IMO peer pressure and enforcement is the best avenue.

Regarding smartphones I agree with you that they can never be policed. No contest personnel can check a every cockpit nor should they be expected to. Phones are stored in all locations within a cockpit and many times for safety.

The rule to require a camera if suspected of cloud flying is as ludicrous as weighing the top three finishers the following day at National events.

Ron Gleason

Ron, I commend you for making the effort. Im sure that there were a few other CDs who tried to enforce the rule. But I think most CD's are not as sophisticated. This is not a personal snub at them at all, its just the reality.

Well said P3!!!

As I have always said, for any rules to work, there has got to be enforcement. If there is no enforcement, then why have rules at all. As a CD, if there is a rule in effect, I am more than willing to enforce it. Any CD who is not is not doing his or her job. This is how our sport has been conducted, successfully for many many years.

Unless they are the laws of nature and physics, rules are an artificial construct to create a system or "game" - in our case it is glider racing. Rules define the very nature of all sport.

As an artificial construct, the rules of sport are by definition a CHOICE! Maybe the choice is to grow the sport by allowing all technology into the cockpit. But maybe the choice is to restrict and enforce certain technology in the interests of the sport.

If all glider racing turns into a technology free for all in the name of simplification and some imaginary gentlemen's code of conduct holding sway, then I do not know how long I will stomach the sport I love so much.

Respectfully,
Tim EY

I've no doubt all of that can be done but doesn't it just take the fun
out of soaring? If winning is all that matters, have fun. Those who fly
for the joy of it won't be there any more.


On 1/27/2015 10:52 AM, Papa3 wrote:
I've said this in the past and I'll say it again. Let's not think of "smart phones" as in: I picked up my iPhone or Galaxy S4 and looked at the radar app. Then opened up the artificial horizon app. etc.

As long as we allow connectivity for real time communications in the cockpit, it's absolutely trivial for even a halfway talented developer to create a really, really slick interface on a larger format tablet (something like a Nexus) with GPS and wireless data inputs. Wanna overlay the Radar and Satellite pictures over the task area 40 miles out. No sweat. Pull in all of the latest surface observations for current wind data and depict that as wind vectors. Got it. And while we're at it lets overlay a better user interface to create a tactical leaching tool off of Flarm data. Put some additional tapes and markers on the UI, and just eliminate that annoyance of having to look out the window.

I'm not necessarily "against this", but I do think that one of the reasons you have rules is to decide what technology we do or don't want. The 1960 Lightning that I used to sail would certainly have been "better" using more modern rigging and carbon fiber spars, but the folks in the ILCA decided this wasn't what was wanted.

If we decided we DON'T want this, can we guarantee with 100% certainty that someone isn't violating the letter or the spirit of the rules? Maybe, maybe not. But if it were clear that any form of connectivity was verboten and that all pilots were subject to post flight ramp checks of all devices immediately upon rollout, it would at least send a message. COTS devices all log their usage of data and services, so it would take someone actively cheating to hide this. Point being, let's first decide what we really want, then let's decide if/how we can eforce "the rules".

P3



On Tuesday, January 27, 2015 at 11:25:20 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
Sorry, but I find that scenario hard to swallow. It would be hard
to miss a developing thunderstorm simply by looking out the window.
If it's so far away that you can't see it, I doubt, you'd change
course and fly into the gloom just because your so-called "smart
phone" (it's only as smart as the idiots who wrote the software)
told you there was lift in that direction. Note: I put my phone in
airplane mode and clip it to my belt before takeoff.






On 1/27/2015 8:04 AM, JJ Sinclair
wrote:



Mike,
The problem is that some have used their smart phone app to access the latest radar wx, and headed straight for a developing thunderstorm, then ran under the storm exchanging lift for speed. This tactic is legal, but very foolish and dangerous because you always run the chance of being sucked into the storm...................but wait, the smart phone also has an app that provides an artificial horizon, problem solved! This tactic works best in a 2 place sailplane with instrument rated pilots. The GIB (guy in back) directs the show while the nose gunner flies instruments.

I fear allowing unrestricted smart phone use has unlocked the candy store, but failed to activate the security cameras.
:) JJ





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Dan Marotta

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Dan Marotta