Spinning (mis)concepts

"Andy Durbin" wrote in message
om...
"Bill Daniels" wrote in message

If you have a glider that exhibits a pronounced float in ground effect,
I'd
advise against a no-spoiler approaches. I think this may be where
accidents
due to training will be greater than those due to a real spoiler
failure.

Bill Daniels


I think the distinction should be made between no spoiler
patterns/circuit/approaches and no spoiler landings.

I think a simulated jammed closed, or jammed open, situation is useful
training but, as I said earlier, I always released the malfunction on
short final. The landing float was not an issue as spoiler/airbrake
could be used for the landing.

When doing simulated engine fails with airplane pilots I always make
it clear that the engine is available on short final. No point in
busting the airplane with a hard landing.


Andy

I'll eagerly accept that any exercise that improves a students judgement in
pattern work is worthwhile and I agree that no spoiler patterns would do
that. The problem is that some have interpreted the "no-spoiler" exercise
as a landing to a stop without the use of any spoilers at all to simulate a
spoiler system failure. That's scary.

Bill Daniels

On 5 Feb 2004 05:15:35 -0800, (Andy Durbin)
wrote:


I think the distinction should be made between no spoiler
patterns/circuit/approaches and no spoiler landings.

I think a simulated jammed closed, or jammed open, situation is useful
training but, as I said earlier, I always released the malfunction on
short final. The landing float was not an issue as spoiler/airbrake
could be used for the landing.

Does this mean that the student pilot makes the approach by using
sideslip only?
Bye
Andreas

Andreas Maurer wrote in message

Does this mean that the student pilot makes the approach by using
sideslip only?
Bye
Andreas

Depending on the simulated malfuction the student will make the
approach with full spoilers or with no spoilers. A slipping approach
can be used in either case to vary the glide path.

For the case where a full open jam is simulated at the spoiler check
on downwind, it gets obvious fairly quickly whether the pilot can
adapt to the condition.

I thought this was a standard training/evaluation exercise in UK. Any
comments from the UK group?


Andy

Sigh...

Ah well, I gave it a try. Some valley's just can't be crossed.

In that sense, is demonstrating
proficiency in it any less "practical" a test item than some of the
ground reference maneuvers found in the airplane PTS?

I did a full slip and got really low at one point, and
my CFI at the time remarked he wasn't comfortable that
low with a wing down.

I took a look out the side and said to myself
"Self, where did those hella long wings come from?"
and then pulled out the slip.

Heck yeah, slips in a glider are a lot different than
in a 152 :PPP

I'll eagerly accept that any exercise that improves a students judgement in
pattern work is worthwhile and I agree that no spoiler patterns would do
that. The problem is that some have interpreted the "no-spoiler" exercise
as a landing to a stop without the use of any spoilers at all to simulate a
spoiler system failure. That's scary.

Bill Daniels

In many situations I could see it being scary, but in at least one
case I liked it.

I flew a Katana DA-20-C1, and the instructor simulated a
no-electrics landing. With no flaps, the thing floated all the
way down the runway, and we went around (but we could have landed,
long runway).

His point was to show that if the flaps (like spoilers) fail,
find a looong runway. If the runway is long enough, no problem...

On 6 Feb 2004 05:36:23 -0800, (Andy Durbin)
wrote:

Andreas Maurer wrote in message

Does this mean that the student pilot makes the approach by using
sideslip only?
Bye
Andreas

Depending on the simulated malfuction the student will make the
approach with full spoilers or with no spoilers. A slipping approach
can be used in either case to vary the glide path.

For the case where a full open jam is simulated at the spoiler check
on downwind, it gets obvious fairly quickly whether the pilot can
adapt to the condition.

I thought this was a standard training/evaluation exercise in UK. Any
comments from the UK group?

I've never been handed either situation by an instructor, though I
have known them to open the airbrakes during a cable launch.


--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :