Cockpit video recording -- the time is now.

Hi Ramy:
Your issue about my data is a little besides the point I was making - but to answer your question I am in New England where I am a former SSA director and the Chief Pilot for the largest club. In Region 1 there are exactly zero club gliders (counting all clubs) with FLARM, zero tow planes with it, and only about 16-18 privately owned gliders that have it. Particularly considering that the club gliders are doing the most flights and hours - that's pretty poor penetration. I am not saying that is a good thing - and I am a FLARM supporter - but outside the competition scene it just has not penetrated.

My point however - was (and is) that if you can't get people to mandate use of an accident prevention device - how are you going to mandate a accident diagnostic device?

Safety Nazis, mandating this and that. I think I threw up a little.

Roy,

This will be an over-the-shoulder view; so nobodies plumbing parts are in the picture. Let's not worry about that.

Again, I understand that it doesn't sell well as a strictly voluntary thing for folks to want to buy individually. I like your autopsy insurance analogy. We're looking for the best idea to solve that. The miracle of collaboration happens when a lot of people think about the problem. I think the best idea so far has come from Paul Agnew yesterday. Paul suggested that the incentive come from insurance discounts. That could do the trick. Sort of like when car insurance is cheaper if you purchase airbags.

Let's say the camera cost is $200. Let's say your glider insurance costs $100 more if you don't use a video logger. That would do a good job of motivating the unit without the need of a mandate per se. Most people would buy one and install it for the economic benefit and not worry much about their privacy concerns. Furthermore, there would then be a built-in mechanism to motivate its proper usage if the insurance is in some degree jeopardized if your logger is not being used or not operating when an accident happens..

Clearly the insurance idea requires a bit of distortion field around the insurance pricing. As we've noted, having a camera won't actually reduce the insurance risk. So the rate difference isn't strictly rational as it is in the case of airbags. The good news is that there are only about 3 companies in the US that insure gliders. If those few players could each be convinced or incentivized to enter the distortion field, then we're golden.

Steve Koerner

On Tuesday, October 2, 2018 at 7:33:50 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
Steve:
let me briefly respond to your points - but in reverse order.

FLARM is an active and useful accident avoidance device - albeit at a cost. Yet everybody still resisted making it mandatory. Although it is useful in the air to avoid collisions it has achieved less than 1% penetration into gliders operating and flights being conducted. Competition flying (where FLARM is well accepted now) is a microscopic subset of glider flying in the US and the accidents that you want to learn about are not happening for the most part in SSA sanctioned contests.

But your camera idea does not even qualify as an accident avoidance device - it's a post accident diagnostic device that might "possibly" assist in some types of accident investigations if it captures useful diagnostic information and if it survives the crash. And it also has a cost particularly if it is to be made crash-worthy. To use a silly illustration of the comparison with FLARM - it's the difference between Health insurance (that keeps you or gets you healthy) and private autopsy insurance (that tells others why you are dead). Of course nobody buys or sells autopsy insurance - there is little perceived value in it and the government does a generally acceptable job doing it free. The same will be true of your cameras and any attempt to make them mandatory: Little perceived value for the cost and the government does a generally acceptable job at accident investigation.

I also disagree that an electronic stream of GPS data points that requires an intermediary program to collate and present into what is essentially a cartoon presentation of the flight (like SeeYou) is the same type of invasion of privacy as a video which is immediately usable, publishable and understandable. Yes- we all fly with multiple GPS trackers but I retain the option (even in a SSA contest) of refusing to submit my flight log and accepting the penalty for that. And need I mention that none of the tracking devices I use carry the problem of being focused on the control stick area while I am fitting and using the catheter in flight? And if you say "OK - we can turn it off then" - you have just made it non mandatory and ruined your whole argument.

In the end Steve, your strongest argument is "We gotta do something." That maybe true and I respect the feeling - but it's not this mandatory camera idea that we should do.

All the best,
ROY

How y'all going to feel when your buddies, or your self's, footage of spinning in ends up on the news and interwebs. Don't kid yourself with any chain of custody BS. Gory footage gets 'released' all the time. Never mind policy/law to the contrary.

At 02:33 03 October 2018, Roy B. wrote:
But your camera idea does not even qualify as an accident avoidance
device
=
I have found my camera to be an excellent diagnostic device that may
prevent me having an accident in future by showing me what daft behaviours
I can display in field landings etc.

Also, in UK competition, it is very rare for any pilot to be called before
the safety committee. This has a lot to do with buddies not wanting to
sneak on each other but also because there is no real objective evidence of
miscreant flying which could lead to all sorts of unpleasantness in
discussion. Poor discipline in racing gaggles shows up very well on my
camera.

Jim

On Wednesday, October 3, 2018 at 12:19:17 AM UTC+2, George Haeh wrote:
My Air Glide S feeds data to my Oudie which is recorded in the IGC file at 1Hz. Supplementary data is TAS, GS, TRK, VAR. You can determine gusts in the x and z axes from that data (without heading, you cannot determine gusts in the y axis).

I would like to see a 5 minute buffer with the attitude and 3-axis acceleration data which the Air Glide Sensor Unit produces at 20 Hz.

We are seeing a number of unexplained accidents and are conjecturing among control problems, structural failures, incapacitation and gusts (my own experience).

My take on incapacitation as a possibility is that while quite possible, it seems more conjectured with gliders than the record shows with powered aircraft.

That said any degree of hypoxia can degrade capacity and lead to a suspected loss of control or structural failure.


All good and well to have 1Hz logging and a buffer or whatever, but most (all?) loggers keep this in volatile memory/RAM and only periodically flush to non-volatile storage, so just about no crash ever gets recorded. It's a tricky problem as volatile storage has write limits that would (possibly) be hit too early in their life if every fix was written out.

On 10/2/2018 9:32 PM, Roy B. wrote:
My point however - was (and is) that if you can't get people to mandate use of an accident prevention device - how are you going to mandate a accident diagnostic device?
I was, am, and will always be against mandating FLARM, cameras, or any
other devices in the cockpit, yet I have it installed in my current
glider and had it in my previous glider, as well (and I'm very pleased
with its performance).Â* I took a lot of heat quite a few years back when
I took a position against mandating FLARM.Â* It's the mandating part that
I object to, not the device itself.

By all means, make your proposal, support it with arguments, and
congratulate all the adopters, but count me out on this one.
--
Dan, 5J

What about straps Dan? I believe they are mandated. Should that be
removed?




At 14:29 03 October 2018, Dan Marotta wrote:


On 10/2/2018 9:32 PM, Roy B. wrote:
My point however - was (and is) that if you can't get people to
mandate
use of an accident prevention device - how are you going to mandate
a
accident diagnostic device?
I was, am, and will always be against mandating FLARM, cameras, or
any
other devices in the cockpit, yet I have it installed in my current
glider and had it in my previous glider, as well (and I'm very pleased
with its performance).Â* I took a lot of heat quite a few years back
when
I took a position against mandating FLARM.Â* It's the mandating part
that
I object to, not the device itself.

By all means, make your proposal, support it with arguments, and
congratulate all the adopters, but count me out on this one.
--
Dan, 5J

That hardly requires an answer, Mike.Â* I had seat belts in my car long
before they were mandated; it was my choice, not the government's, and
I'd still have them without the mandate. Likewise, I've flown legacy
aircraft which didn't have shoulder straps without wetting my pants over
the hazards.

For the last time:Â* Choose what works for you and let me choose for
myself.Â* Try to force me and we'll have a problem.

On 10/3/2018 8:50 AM, Mike Oliver wrote:
What about straps Dan? I believe they are mandated. Should that be
removed?




At 14:29 03 October 2018, Dan Marotta wrote:

On 10/2/2018 9:32 PM, Roy B. wrote:
My point however - was (and is) that if you can't get people to
mandate
use of an accident prevention device - how are you going to mandate
a
accident diagnostic device?
I was, am, and will always be against mandating FLARM, cameras, or
any
other devices in the cockpit, yet I have it installed in my current
glider and had it in my previous glider, as well (and I'm very pleased
with its performance).ÂÂ* I took a lot of heat quite a few years back
when
I took a position against mandating FLARM.ÂÂ* It's the mandating part
that
I object to, not the device itself.

By all means, make your proposal, support it with arguments, and
congratulate all the adopters, but count me out on this one.
--
Dan, 5J


--
Dan, 5J

Garmin Virb cameras might be a perfect choice perfect for the purpose indicated in this thread. They record their own GPS data parallel to the video, plus you can add several useful sensors like inside/outside temperature and heartbeat rate, which will also be recorded on the microSD card.